Galactic Empire vs Federation redux

[TheRainKing777]

Federation has teleporter machines. I'm pretty sure teleporter machines beats tie fighters. How come ST people can't teleport onto empire ships? Couldn't Data just hack their computers? They don't seem that hard. If R2D2 can do it, Data is the most advanced android ever created.

SCIENCE

[Mr. Oragahn]

Because it's generally assumed that shields in SW would share enough of the properties of those in ST as to block beaming tech.

[TheRainKing777]

So there's no evidence, it's just 'assumed'?

[Mr. Oragahn]

So there's no evidence, it's just 'assumed'?

If their results are comparable and similar, there are greater chances that there's going to be a number of problems known for ST devices which would also find an equivalent, albeit partial, in SW.
For example, an antimatter bomb and a fusion bomb may not work on the same principles, but in atmosphere, they will produce a huge fireball with few differences.

We've also seen Trek transporters have issues with some force fields and other hazards, and I recall that the Wars side tried to show how their ships' shields used mechanics which were close to the properties of those disturbances which hampered the proper function of transporters.

Mind you, it's a game where the SW side would say "our shields are similar enough" so to make the beaming trick null, but would reject the idea that "disintegration is similar enough", despite the very strong similarities as well.

[mojo]

look at rain, getting interested enough to stop trolling. aaah, memories. i did the same thing in 2007. of course, it was only temporary.

[TheRainKing777]

Also notice how this 'serious' board says nothing when someone brings forth an honest question. Mods seem to have scared everyone away from me. Awesome welcoming tactic guys. Appreciated. *sarcasm*

[Picard]

Also notice how this 'serious' board says nothing when someone brings forth an honest question. Mods seem to have scared everyone away from me. Awesome welcoming tactic guys. Appreciated. *sarcasm*

What? When?

This board is living on life-support apparatus.

[TheRainKing777]

Also notice how this 'serious' board says nothing when someone brings forth an honest question. Mods seem to have scared everyone away from me. Awesome welcoming tactic guys. Appreciated. *sarcasm*

What? When?

This board is living on life-support apparatus.

I agree. I put up a few serious questions. Like whether Counselor Troy would read anything off Darth Vader or Greivous, etc.

[Picard]

You mean, as in "mind reading"? Well, she was just Councilor Obvious - really, did they need her to tell them that alien threatening to blow up Enterprise, and use entire crew for cheeseburgers has "hostile intentions"? (Granted, there never was exact incident like that, but there were similar situations. As in:

RandomAlien: "AARG!! WRSSAARGJHGFF!! YOU ALL DEAD!!! I KILL YOU!!!!"
Troi: "Captain, I sense hostility."

[mojo]

the problem is that it wasn't clear what we were joking about and what we were serious about. i found the idea of someone 'hacking' vader's armor interesting enough to want opinion, and i also found the question of whether his armor would be vulnerable to sw droid weaknesses like restraining bolts interesting, but i think everyone thought we were joking. take your serious questions, and make a new thread asking them. do me a favor and copy/paste mine in as well, if you don't mind. i guarantee answers.

[mojo]

troi was only able to read emotion, wasn't she? what would it matter if she could read whether vader is angry or not, unless you just mean for curiosity's sake?

[mojo]

Mike DiCenso: hello, mojo. welcome to the forum.
Troi: captain, i sense hostility.

[Lucky]

Those calculations don't mesh with the rest of the universe. Its like TDIC. Their obscene outliers.

Booby trap(TNG)

A Taste of Armageddon(TOS)

The Omega Directive(Vger)

The Die Is Cast(DS9)

The Council(Ent)

I'm sure there are more

Funny how every single Star Trek has Death Star superlaser level or better weapons. The weapons are common, and in the hands of groups less advanced then the United Federation of Planets. Planet busting fire power is not a one off in Star Trek,. deal with it. TDIC is not an outlier. TDIC is simply an on screen example of known capabilities seen in every era of Star Trek.

Do not mistake me not agreeing with it as being too busy to read it. I am growing sick of your accussing tone of either incompetence or evil conspiracy merely because I don't agree with your assumptions.

You like to put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and go La La La when dealing with me in my experience with you. Your act of playing victim really only makes you look worse.

The best should be the Hoth systems which could hold off six ships, including one really big one, and was equiped with weaponry which completely drop kicked an ISD. Coupled with their fighters and a smaller task force they might have even been able to win. Comparativly the weakest defeneses for Trek could not hope to stand up to more than a Galaxy class.

A couple of Photon Torpedo launchers are as good if not better as the Hoth Ion Cannon, and there should be hundreds on most settled planets.. Photon Torpedos have anti-shield technologies, and travel faster then light. There is nothing a Star Destroyer can do to stop them.

The fighters used in Star Wars are useless against any defended Star Trek position do to lack of range, and lack of fire power. The most powerful weapons used by Star Wars fighters are less powerful then Star Trek mortars.

Now you need to prove that the 5 star destroyers and Super Star Destroyer could bombard the Hoth base. There is no example that Star Destroyer or similar ships can even hit a planet from orbit from what I recall.

Well it would be more impressive if you posed the pic of Memory Alpha but yes its a large facility.

Memory Alpha doesn't have shields for symbolic reasons.

You have two examples of light minute ranges. I showed you like five last time of a light second or less.

That's nice, but completely irrelevant. Imperial ships might as well be stationary targets the way they maneuver, and they are being shot at by FTL weapons.. If a SD can't dodge the Rebel's Ion Canon at Hoth they have no chance of doing anything about the faster then light weapons Star Trek powers have, and Earth has had FTL weapons since before the Federation was formed.

Those torpedoes weren't being used to explode the planet, they were being used to shatter dilithium crystals which were about to explode the planet.

You really shouldn't put words in people mouths. I never claimed Picard was trying to destroy the planet read a bit more carefully. Read my posts like you claimed you do.

I was pointing out that that Photon Torpedos can bury themselves, and then explode. We see Dominion torpedos do the same thing with the Defiant's hull.

I do believe the city was protected and further belief it was a planetary shield but it is an assumption and it is not clearly required for that scene.

There had to be a shield over the planet, or a single torpedo would have turned anywhere hit into a crater, and at least badly damaged the city near the academy that was attacked. The only sane conclusion is that the United Federation of Planets used shield technologies they have to cover the entire planet.

Well I can poin to this G-canon quote:

The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.

Typically calced out to be about a megaton and we can forget about a glorified flak cannon shooting down an Acclamator.

Those calculations are based on real world USA small towns, and not on Star Wars small towns which a proton cannon would likely be able to destroy with a well placed shot. Small towns in Star Wars can be very small when the planetary population is in the thousands, and the natives are only about as tall as a clone trooper's knee.

First for this era there is not much in the way of expected threats. Second Starfleet seems the primary force to which such threats are met, local "defense fleets" are more of a last ditch sort of thing and will be highly dependent upon the race in question.

The Defense fleets are a first line of defense of a planet/planetary system because they can easily move, and anything ground based would be the last line of defense.

The UFP has been improving weapon and shield technologies throughout its existence, and implementing those technological improvements as they are "perfected" on their Star Ships. Why should we assume that the UFP would not do the same to their defensive fleets, and other defenses normally?

Why wouldn't the defensive fleets be capable of fighting expected threats like if the Klingons suddenly decided to attack? It doesn't matter if the other powers that can threaten you are friendly or not, you design your defenses to hold them off in case they decide not to be friendly any more.

What you are doing is taking a vague and unquantifiable quote, and then making a smurf load of assumptions that ignore that facts. The UFP is constantly upgrading their kit, and we see this throughout all of Star Trek.

I can. IIRC transporters typically have shorter ranges than weapons ranges and you have to lower your shields to beam troops down. Even without planetary shields you still have to take out the ground based weapons and if they are behind theater shields that just makes things harder. As well there is more to conquring them merely beaming troops down, they have to accomplish their goals whatever they may be.

If I recall correctly the Dominion has an unusually long transporter ranges, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is the fact that a faction like the Dominion can't beam through shields, the Dominion think nothing of killing off a population if it annoys them,

Star Trek mortars are in the low kiloton range, and small arms are in the mega to tera watt range.

We know a Galaxy class and an Intrepid class can beam hundreds in a single go. It would be likely the Dominion could do the same..

If there was no shield over Betazed then there is no way they could have held out for nearly half a day.. The planet would have been nuked or worse.

All the Dominion had to do was take down the shield over the planet, and then possibly take key locations

Where do they say that?

JANEWAY: Fire! 

TUVOK: The asteroid is fragmenting, but most of the debris is still on a collision course with the planet. 

JANEWAY: Target the fragments. Destroy them. 

CHAKOTAY: That asteroid should have been vaporised. What happened? 

KIM: Not sure. Sensors showed a simple nickel-iron composition. We shouldn't be seeing fragments more than a centimetre in diameter. 

SKLAR: Ambassador, I'm afraid I was right. This isn't going to work. The same thing happened to us yesterday. We tried to vaporize two incoming asteroids but they fragmented and struck the surface. 

TUVOK: I've destroyed most of the debris, Captain, however targeting scanners were unable to track two of the fragments. They have already entered the upper atmosphere. The debris impacted on the largest continent, approximately 500 kilometres from the southern tip. 

NEZU AMBASSADOR: The central desert. Fortunately that region isn't heavily populated.

As you can see, Rise is a lower limit because there is no evidence Voyager used a torpedo set to maximum yield, and the dialog implies that they had careful calculated how much boom they would need to vaporize the asteroid in a real world fashion. It doesn't hurt that there are higher, but less easily quantified examples of Photon Torpedo firepower.

Why does [Palpatine] remain on this ship at all? He should be hidden. He should be guarded. We should have had him outsystem hours ago!"

Ignoring the facts that a small town could be a town built by things almost the size of a meerkat for things about the size of meerkats, and have populations in the thousands at best, we know for a fact that ships rarely fire full power shots in Star Wars, and that the commander has to order such a thing..

I would like to know how this quote proves a Star Destroyer can endure serious combat at full power or otherwise for an hour or more? I don't see anything that talks about ship capabilities, and we know that during the Clone War it was standard practice to not fire at full power.

I would say not numerous would be a more appropiate descriptor. They are heavily focused siege engines essentially designed to crack planetary shields.

Which incidently does raise the point said shields have to be numerous enough to warrent such attention but on the other hand equally valid evidence says Alderaan didn't have such a shield and the ANH novel does state it had defenese as strong as any in the Empire. So Wars is a contridictory mess on that score.

Planetary shields are only theater shields in Star Wars, and they are usually turned on after the attacker has landed troops. I've only heard of maybe two planets that had defenses that would warrant such a weapon in the EU, and one of those planets is the capital. The Empire has a weapons to deal with a problem they don't have? Your entire argument for torpedo spheres seems to be the Empire is stupid, and in all honesty I like that answer as much as a physicist likes getting infinity as an answer.

The Empire won't be fielding torpedo spheres because they can't have many, and are needed back home.

Once more I don't disagree with you on that. What we disagree on the strenght of the TOS system. Your basic argument is that TOS pwns Star Wars so having outdated weapons systems is a no issue.

1) We don't know how outdate the defenses were. The quote is nearly unquantifiable. You keep harping about

2) You need to prove that Star Wars weapons have anti-shield properties like Star Trek weapons.(The Outrageous Okona)

3) You need to prove that Star Wars vessels can deliver the energy in the same manner as a Star Trek vessel. The only thing in Star Wars that can is a superlaser.

4) You need to show a single shot from a Star Wars ship can kill everything on a planet after breaching the shield.

Or the asylum is the source of the explosion which makes more sense then assuming the Connie has as inadvertant bleedage from firing main weapons planet busting firepower.

That only makes sense if you ignore the dialog, and what how we see Shield generators behave when shields are beached in Star Trek that I know of.

I never claimed a Wars ship could "focus phasers to narrow beam" and I explictly stated the shield in the episode was good enough to ward off an ISD on its lonesome.

Being able to focus all the energy in one spot with an anti-shield weapon was why the Enterprise's crew had a chance of breaching the shield. It wasn't a matter of simply hitting the shield hard enough.

The standard fleet in Star Wars seems to be about one to three ships, and those ungodly huge fleets we see in TESB and ROTJ are one of a kind, and could only be maintained for a short amount of time. Your entire plan for the Empire is to give them resources they do not have, and claiming they will use tactics they have never used.

That its simply an insane figure which doesn't mesh with the whole of Trek.

Since ever series to carry the Star Trek brand has at least one example of such firepower it fits perfectly in line with the whole of Star Trek. Your odd quirk of nerfing and with holding technologies from the Star Trek side while give Star Wars things they never had and or could not afford is rather annoying.

Yes. The Enterprise-D was quite good at drilling through planet's crusts. I believe they usually took some minor adjusting before they did so. It is what it is but correct me if I'm wrong but even flinging gigatons become useless with such demostrated power.

The Enterprise-D's crew were very careful to cause as little damage as possible instead of just firing at full power. They didn't want a TDIC or Booby Trap to happen. Drilling is a carefully controlled activity. You don't want to just blow the hell out of something.

That is nice, do we have a calc on its firepower?

The Verteron Array was a threat to cities on the Earth, the Moon, and ships like the NX-1 could be very badly damaged by it. That would give it a few hundred kilotons at least if calculations for a cloaked mine that made a nice a nice sized hole in the NX-01 are being remembered correctly.

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 97&page=21

REED: They're on the surface. 
ARCHER: Where? 

REED: They've landed near the verteron array. It's used to redirect comets. 

HOSHI: They're sending a subspace message on all frequencies. 

PAXTON [on viewscreen]: My name is John Frederick Paxton. I've just taken over the verteron array on Mars. I can now fire on any ship or facility in the system. 

(The big ray gun turns and fires a beam)

REED: He's targeted Earth's moon. 

(A new lunar crater is born) 

PAXTON [on viewscreen]: I have no intention of using this weapon again, provided that every single non-human in our system leaves immediately. A new era is at hand, an era that will expose the concept of interspecies unity as an absolute and vicious lie. An era that will witness the advent of a human-centred consciousness

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =98&page=2

REED: Massive power surge! We've lost half our relays. The beam was only two percent of the array's total output. He could have vaporised us.

The point that you seemed to miss is that the Verteron array beam is faster then light, able to target ships as fast and maneuverable as an NX-01, has an effective range of light hours. There are no ship based defenses in Star Wars that can deal with something like that, and nothing in Star Wars can even see a weapon like that, and this is a primitive particle beam used for civilian purposes by Star Trek standards.

To each his own I guess. I simply found them being aghast at how two people could be divided on economic lines while the Cold War was still ongoing to be smugly condencending to the brave Men and Women defending us from the *spit* Commies.

I see it as the writer being optimistic that the Cold War would end peacefully, and both sides would learn from it. A pure capitalist system is rather unpleasant for most living under it often, and a true Marxist system is pretty much wishful thinking. The lines in no way insult anyone, but illustrate how different things are in the 24th century of Star Trek, It's not like Star Trek Earth is our Earth.

More like unable. Everything had to be debated, you had slimy pols who were in the Trade-Feds clutches.

As much as the Trade Federation was corrupt they were the only shipping compony that could legally work in the Republic, and only really cared about making a profit. Pirates would cut into their profits, and so would pirate hunting. They are just the type to try to share the burden of dealing with the pirates by getting the rest of the Republic to shoulder some of the bill.

It is more likely the Naboo and Alderaan types who would be against having a standing military, or things are just really peaceful even during the wars given what we see.

They both seem to be equally unpractical. Hollywood military design is fairly lacking.

Not really. For example: An AT-TE is a better over all design(if barely) then an AT-AT or an AT-ST.

Imperial Star Destroyers are meant to be big and scary while saving money in the fact they perform the duties of a Republic Attack Cruiser and Acclamator. From what I've heard something like 200 hundred Dreadnaught class has the tonnage of 11 ISD, but something like 3 to 6 Dreadnaught class can match 1 or 2 ISD.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnau ... vy_cruiser
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... t_size.jpg

it is stated the Empire was going with style over substance hence the ultimate example of that are the Death Stars. This works because the Republic and the Empire had large numbers of ignorant stone age members, and Palpitine was insane and in it for the evils.

It appeared to be set up that every planet was in charge of their own defense, making the Republic more a loose confederation, which while possesing of obvious problems doesn't equal being preachy pacfifists. Now in the EU the Republic of the era does come across as very preachy, in at least the Darth Plagious novel any planet even really owning a dedicated military was considering wrong and in times of crisis it seemed essentially mercenaries were to be hired to deal with the situation.

That is what is shown in Episodes 2, 3 and much of SW:TCW IMO. I really don't read much of the EU. 5 million troops makes the Republic senate freak out. It makes it sound like most races in the GFFA are absurdly docile.

Realistically there should be an interpol or FBI type organization, but there isn't as far as i can tell. There doesn't even seem to be a Mutual Defense treaty.

That has more to do with sci-fi writers having no sense of scale then the Republic being preachy pacifism

The smaller the numbers in the PT the more sense the OT makes. Honestly, everything makes more sense if all the numbers are small. Star Wars never pretended to be realistic, and it makes all the super weapons like the Malevolence make sense. It is the same type of story as Flash Gordon. The writers know exactly what they are doing with the numbers.

Well judging from TPM a dispute between two worlds would likely be negotiated by a Jedi represenative. Frankly through I think your wandering off track here, you were complaining the Old Republic was a bunch of preachy peace lovers, more so than early TNG, not the flaws you disagree with concerning the Republic's political structure.

Given the way the Viceroy acted you would think he had never met a Jedi. He acted like they were assassins. When there is a blockade in SWTCW there is no talk of sending Jedi or that Jedi were sent before the Clone War that I can recall.

Heck, in TPM the Republic didn't even consider Jedi respectable sources of information that Naboo was being invaded by someone at least posing as the Trade Federation. If the Jedi were actually agents of the Republic their word should have been enough for the Republic to take action.

They were never observed with torpedoes to the best of my recollection. And it never fought a drawn out fight with the Enterprise only turning and running when confronted, except for some slight of hand done by Riker where he faked lowering the Enterprise's shields.

So the merc ship had weapons that might have been able to disable the shields of the Enterprise-D? That sounds like the Mercenary ship may have had an anti-shield weapon. There are just too many unknowns to quantify the ship.

That a lower tier defense system can't hope to defeat more than two Galaxy class starships and in likelyhood would fall to far less. We know a mercenary ship equal to or less then to the Enterprise had a chance of defeating the outpost in fifteen minutes.

We have a mercenary ship that apparently had a weapon that might be able to bring down the shields of a Galaxy Class ship implying the mercenary's ship was likely fitted with anti-shield weapons.

The problem is we don't know enough to quantify the ship like you seem to think we do. How did the mercenaries plan to bring down the shield? Why would they believe they could bring down the shields of a Galaxy class ship?

You are also forgetting that Star Trek ships have far more control over the weapons on their ships then those of Star Wars. We see that beaching a shield requires a very focused beam with anti-shield properties for example rather then just blasting at random places.

No. I said if you believe a Connie is a match for an ISD than your base assumption, my forces are so powerful even horribly hindered I still pwn you without question, was valid. If you are like me who doesn't see it that way then the assumption doesn't hold.

A Constitution class can kill everything on a planet with a single shot, and repeatedly took planet killing shots in multiple episodes.

Well fleets were bigger in TESB and ROTJ, and they did consider an orbital bombardment, and the Imperial sourcebook does list lesser crafts which are supposed to flesh out the Star Destroyers we see. Such as Carrack cruisers who were named refrenced in the ROTS novel.

I'd like the quotes about orbital bombardment from TESB and ROTJ. I've heard of these, but can't recall them from the movies..

These lesser ships used by the Republic and Empire never appear in the movies even though they should have, and that means they aren't likely to be used to invade an alien territory. Heck they rarely show up in SW:TCW, and they aren't sent to invade a planet.

It has phasers and possibly photon torpedoes. Weather doesn't seem like it was designed to repulse.

^_^For all we know the phasers and photon Torpedos are really there to deal with the local wildlife.^_^

Seriously, those phasers are like meant to take down shuttles. The type talked about in "Who Watches the Watchers.", and we don't know what type of photon torpedo they would have.

No. It simply means we take Paris not freezing to death with a grain of salt.

We know that all humans have latent psychic powers in Star Trek, and all humans have minor psychic powers because .it is stated in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"(TOS).

Besides there are real world humans who do what Tom did only naked now that I think about it. The difference is people are rare, and Tom was considered normal.

The point is its an old west program it wouldn't have forcefields as forcefields, as opposed to faking solidness, and either Worf somehow reprogramed the holodeck or generated a forcefield.

Everything in the holodeck is force fields normally. Worf was likely being targeted by force fields that simulate bullets. That is what Picardf seems to have used in First Contact.

I don't know. I do know the scene was supposed to show how exceptional Data was not his footwear.

I watch a lot of Top Gear, so being able to get the needed traction is something that comes to mind for me when I see or think about such a scene. It doesn't matter how strong or tuff Data is if he can't get the needed traction. A similar problem happens when Data runs superhumanly fast. Either Data wears custom made shoes, or Star Fleet shoes issue are far more advanced then they are in the 20th/21st century.

How often do characters in Star Trek who are wearing Star Fleet issue footwear slip? I can't think of a time that didn't involve the person flying across the room.

You posted it in reply to querying you saying uniforms provide protection against enviromental extremes seemingly with shields. If you don't think it is proof of shielding technology why did you bring it up?

Then there has been a major communication failure. I've been trying to argue from the beginning that Star Fleet uniforms are composed of advanced materials that protect the wearer, and may have protective energy/force fields. To assume only fields being used would be silly. It is only logical to think you would design a uniform that be comfortable in situations Star Fleet personnel are going to have to deal with like plasma fires on ships, ice worlds, lava worlds and so on. The Federation members are from lava worlds, ice worlds, and who knows what else after all.

I believe it was Emissary(TNG), DataLore, and "The Siege of AR-558 that showed Klingon armor, Federation uniforms, and rock/cave wall(possibly shielded) having similar visual effects when shot with Phasers and Disruptors..

I don't. Nor do I need to. You proposed a theroy and I showed you how it doesn't work. Merely because an explanation has not been determined yet does not mean your proven wrong theory must be correct.

I've provided evidence to support my claim. You have not provided evidence to support your claim to the contrary. You made a claim that you have failed to support with evidence. The burden of proof is on you, and you can't ignore things characters do in canon just because you don't find the implications to your liking.

Your entire argument hinges n the fact that no one has directly credited the uniforms as far as I can tell.

You have two options given the evidence:
1)Star Trek humans are superhuman by modern real world Earth standards.

2)The clothing humans wear in Star Trek lets them do things that modern real world humans would consider superhuman.

I prefer being specific at least in these matters. Having ones entire coat set on fire is more impressive than having ones sleeve set on fire.

The sleeve of Dr.Crusher's jacket was lit on fire with a phaser by Lore who was not trying to kill her.

There was a flash and flame, and Dr. Crusher was running out of the room as Lore wanted her to.

Dr. Crusher's arm and uniform were not burnt, or even damaged in the slightest.

That tells us the uniform or jacket is made of something protective, uses some sort of shielding, or both.

Occams razor. You posit the uniform is given him protection but yet you admit he is having protection on areas not protected by his uniform so you then add that he has an unstated energy shield around him. Conversely I say the cold is simply not affecting him in the way such tempatures would normally do so.

Fact: Tom Paris's head and hands are exposed to -22 degree Celsius air for hours, but Tom did not suffer anything beyond discomfort.

Fact: No one was surprised a human would only suffer discomfort in a -22 degree Celsius environment for hours,

Conclusion:
Either all Star Trek humans can shrug off extreme cold for hours, or it is the result of unmentioned technology at work.

Occams razor. You posit the uniform is given him protection but yet you admit he is having protection on areas not protected by his uniform so you then add that he has an unstated energy shield around him. Conversely I say the cold is simply not affecting him in the way such tempatures would normally do so.

Then you are arguing that superhuman abilities are common place in Star Trek to the point everyone just assumes you have them. There evidence to support that i guess since it is stated in TOS, but then every superhuman feat is then not a goof up by the production team. I've already listed the silliness this leads to. Star Wars or most settings for that matter don't stand a chance. What chance would Star Wars have against planets full of people who have a chance of dodging light speed or faster weapons. I'm trying to nerf Star Trek humans here with technologies that won't factor into a fight. If it isn't the tech then it is all the user. i guess the only thing special about the younger crusher is the degree to which he can to stuff in your eyes..

Its fairly simple. If he's protected both where he wears the uniform and where he doesn't it can't be the uniform. There is no reason to assume its the uniform and therefore no reason to imagine forcefields were none are implied. Its an outlier, a bit of bad writing call it what you will. Not something to try and base an entire argument around.

Here you go again taking away any hope Star Wars has against the god like races in Star Trek in your eyes at least. I'm trying to keep all the races in Star Trek being entities that make Galen Marek seem unimpressive.

Example?

Example?

ITCHELL: Yore relieved, Mister Alden. 

ALDEN: Acknowledged, Mister Mitchell. 

KIRK: Screen on. 

KELSO: Screen on, sir. Approaching galaxy edge, sir. 

KIRK: Neutralise warp, Mister Mitchell. Hold this position. 

MITCHELL: Neutralise warp, sir. 

KIRK: Address intercraft. 

MITCHELL: Intercraft open. 

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago. 

SPOCK: The tapes are burnt out. Trying the memory banks. 

KIRK: We hope to learn from the recorder what the Valiant was doing here and what destroyed the vessel. We'll move out into our probe as soon as we have those answers. All decks, stand by. 

MITCHELL: Department heads, sir. You wanted everybody on the Bridge before we left the galaxy. Jones. SMITH: The name's Smith, sir. 

SULU: Astro sciences standing by, Captain. 

SCOTT: Engineering division ready, as always. 

PIPER: Life sciences ready, sir. This is Doctor Dehner, who joined the ship at the Aldebaran colony. 

DEHNER: Psychiatry, Captain. My assignment is to study crew reaction in emergency conditions. 

SPOCK: Getting something from the recorder now. 

DEHNER: lf there was an emergency, I'd be interested in how that crew reacted, too. 

MITCHELL: Improving the breed, Doctor? Is that your line? 

DEHNER: I heard that's more your specialty, Commander, line included. 

MITCHELL: (to Kelso) Walking freezer unit. 

SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction. 

KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough. 

SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here. I'm not getting it all. The tapes are pretty badly burned. Sounds like the ship had encountered some unknown force. Now, orders, counter orders, repeated urgent requests for information from the ship's computer records for anything concerning ESP in human beings. 

KIRK: Extrasensory perception. Doctor Dehner, how are you on ESP? 

DEHNER: In tests I've taken, my ESP rated rather high. 

KIRK: I'm asking what you know about ESP. 

DEHNER: It is a fact that some people can sense future happenings, read the backs of playing cards and so on, but the esper capacity is always quite limited. 

SPOCK: Severe damage. Seven crewmen dead. No, make that six. One crewman seemed to have recovered. That's when they became interested in extrasensory perception. More than interested, almost frantic about it. No, this must be garbled. I get something about destruct. I must have read it wrong. It sounded like the captain giving an order to destroy his own ship.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Extrasensory_perception

It is common enough everyone gets tested

Too bad he only uses it when he's off camera instead of when it would be useful.

It was meant more or less as a joke, but since you took it seriously...

Performing Titan's Turn requires superhuman reflexes, but if you did the run it is likely you did the maneuver.

Picard dodged a phaser beam seemingly by manipulating the flow of time from his perspective in conspiracy.

Weaselly Crusher stopped time from his perspective.(The only known human to have conscious control of this power, but the Traveler's race can do it.)

In all likely hood Bones altered the flow of time from his perspective without realizing it.

I'm claiming the writers didn't get the tempature right for how the characters were written.

Freezing temperatures for hours in only spandex is going to be very bad for most humans aside from the extremely rare super according to real life.

Does there need to be temporal manipulation to dodge a phaser beam?

The phasers on ships are faster then light, and the phaser beam Picard dodged was moving abnormally slowly as I recall.

This is the titan's turn thing again isn't it?

Yep, I believe I showed you how much time the pilot has to make the turn before slamming nose first into Titan at 70% the speed of light.

Titan's Turn is performed manually. What Titan's turn does imply is the likely hood of time dilation technology.

LAFORGE: Oh, yeah. You set a course directly for Titan, hold it until you're just brushing the atmosphere, throw the helm hard over and whip around the moon at point seven c.

.7c is about 210,000 kilometers per second
1/210,000= 4.7619048E-06= .0000047619048
1 km every .0000047619048 seconds

Titan's upper atmosphere is about 975 kilometers from the surface.
975*.0000047619048= 0.00464285718

The pilot of the shuttle will have about 0.00464285718 seconds before hitting Titan, but human reaction times are about 0.19 seconds for light and and 0.16 seconds for sound if I'm reading this right. I'm not sure even world record holders could do it.

http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/ ... 20Stimulus

Well I just don't see things your way. Nine times out of ten your examples require a very selective interpentation and then comes into conflict with the rest of the series when they don't use these special powers.

Because you say so?

We routinely see ships functioning at relativistic speeds with no time dilation being mentioned as an issue. I assume there is some unmentioned technology at work.

Tom Paris does nothing that is impossible for a human to do in the real world. It is just really rare. What makes his -22 degree feat odd is that it does not surprise anyone.

It is bluntly stated that humans in Star Trek have latent psychic powers, and they test for it. They even have the ability to look for psychic energy with tricorders.

You brought up the alien first talking about how it passed out. I am simply pointing out it was sitting there breathing everything in, fully exposed to any and all heat far longer than Chakotay. Either it can be used as an example to judge the hostility of the enviroment or it can't. As it stands I see nothing to suggest it was Chakotay's uniform which allowed him to survive as opposed to simple hollywood phsyics as it deals with lava fields.

You are breaking SOD.

We already know from Datalore that Star Fleet uniforms don't burn, and protect the person wearing it. Heat isn't an issue.

It is implied in the the -22c degree incident with Tom that exposed skin is somehow protected unless all humans have gotten genetically enhanced, but that would be against the law, and they were starting to run out of time.

In Basics we see Chakotay fearlessly charges through a cloud of vapors implying he had nothing to fear from poisonous gas or steam. Given Star Fleet officers and enlisted are high educated inthe sciences they must have all known the dangers of a volcanon.

Well it beats trying to form some super never remarked upon, never seen again shoe sole based upon that scene.

Because "you say so" isn't an argument, and it isn't like we get a detailed technical run down of every little peace of technology(thankfully).

Worf manipulated the forcefields and holograms in the holodeck with the forcefields and holograms in the holodeack and the battery from his com-badge.

Data grabbed a hologram and force fields that was trying to run him over, and used real shoes to do it. Find an example of Star Fleet personnel slipping and falling and I will concede the shoes are at best unique to Data or a visual effect error.

The various armbands things they slapped on their arms? Those are presumbly the shield generators.

LAFORGE: If we beamed aboard the Enterprise, we'd be frozen in time just like they are. 

PICARD: Well, we have to find some way of staying unfrozen. Mister La Forge, what about a subspace forcefield like the one we used on Devidia Two? Could something like that protect us from the effects of the temporal fragment? 

LAFORGE: Possibly. We'd need an awfully sensitive phase discriminator in order to moderate that kind of field. 

DATA: The emergency transporter armbands contain a type seven phase discriminator. It should be possible to reconfigure their subspace emitters. 

LAFORGE: Yeah. Yeah, that would certainly isolate us from the effects of the other time frame. But if we wanted to interact with that environment, we'd have to restrict the field. It would have to be practically skintight. 

PICARD: Mister Data? 

DATA: I will attempt to narrow the field, sir. 

LAFORGE: Captain, I think this is going to work, but it's going to take some time. 

PICARD: Well, Mister La Forge, it would seem that time is something we have plenty of.

It's things like this that makes me just nod my head, and say that yes they can do things they really should not be able to. They really should not be able to make the shield skin tight..

Fine then. You still claim there is a forcefield around each person which does not impede their ability to interact with the enviroment. Yet there they were struggling to build such a forcefield.

When does anyone struggle to build a personal shield of any type in Star Trek when they have been taught how to? They just grab some bits and peaces off the shelf, and cobble them together.

There could be an argument made that personal shields and armor are used by the Klingons and the Federation in Way of The Warrior.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 06&page=22
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bertram_%28male%29

It is rather interesting that a guy who got shot in the chest by a Klingon Disruptor happens to be a weapons collector.

Okay. It still supposed to be rather than some wierd armor meant to resemble muscle tone.

Making the armor that shape would allow for better freedom of movement wouldn't it?

What you are describing sounds like motocross pads and football pads.
Motocross pads
http://www.bikemag.com/files/2011/01/wp ... cket-d.jpg
http://www.bikemag.com/blog/preview-fox ... tive-gear/

Football pads
http://www.dowdlesports.com/catalog/ath ... pt1000.bmp
http://www.dowdlesports.com/catalog/ath ... r_pads.htm

First wanted to make sure I had the right quote. And as Preao says its nonsensical. Unlike Paris bravely chasing that mouse.

You are honestly arguing that first doesn't know what his armor can do, and where he has been?

On the other end of the scale we'd have the docking bay shootout scene, the bowl like craters blasted into the wall at Bespin. Power settings would best explain the descrepency.

Blaster bolts and similar technologies like Turbolasers try to tunnel into what they hit, and then explode. This is how they get the flak effect, and why they often act like buried charges.

The problem with your examples is that we don't know what was behind/in the wall, and blaster damage tends to be inconsistent for seemingly no reason.

In cloud city we don't know what was behind the area shot with the blaster.

Han was shooting into Stucco covered mud in episode 4, but the storm troopers in the same scene did not have anywhere near as impressive showings.

This has as much if not more firepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1j ... =endscreen

As well it isn't like phasers always leave a burn mark when they kill someone.

Actually being burnt by a phaser is very common even with stun settings. as I recall. We know for a fact phasers have mega-joule or several orders of magnitude higher outputs.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the halls in Star Fleet ships are made with things like tritanium.

I have no emperical data to do so. So in the absence of evidence and until shown otherwise I assumed him to be comparable to a T-normal human. Much simplier than assuming he can basicly immerse himself in molten lava and Chakotey has a protective forcefield.

So you assume he is just like a human in spite of knowing the kid is not human. I'm sure there is a flaw in your logic there.

The facts remain the same: Chakotey knowing the dangers showed no fear of poison gasses found in a volcanic eruption.

[mojo]

fourteen pages of text, and no chime-in on troi or the burning issue of vader's impotence when fitted with restraining bolt? MADNESS!

also, haha, 'smurf load'.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Those calculations don't mesh with the rest of the universe. Its like TDIC. Their obscene outliers.

Booby trap(TNG)

A Taste of Armageddon(TOS)

The Omega Directive(Vger)

The Die Is Cast(DS9)

The Council(Ent)

I'm sure there are more

Funny how every single Star Trek has Death Star superlaser level or better weapons. The weapons are common, and in the hands of groups less advanced then the United Federation of Planets. Planet busting fire power is not a one off in Star Trek,. deal with it. TDIC is not an outlier. TDIC is simply an on screen example of known capabilities seen in every era of Star Trek.

Do not mistake me not agreeing with it as being too busy to read it. I am growing sick of your accussing tone of either incompetence or evil conspiracy merely because I don't agree with your assumptions.

You like to put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and go La La La when dealing with me in my experience with you. Your act of playing victim really only makes you look worse.

The best should be the Hoth systems which could hold off six ships, including one really big one, and was equiped with weaponry which completely drop kicked an ISD. Coupled with their fighters and a smaller task force they might have even been able to win. Comparativly the weakest defeneses for Trek could not hope to stand up to more than a Galaxy class.

A couple of Photon Torpedo launchers are as good if not better as the Hoth Ion Cannon, and there should be hundreds on most settled planets.. Photon Torpedos have anti-shield technologies, and travel faster then light. There is nothing a Star Destroyer can do to stop them.

The fighters used in Star Wars are useless against any defended Star Trek position do to lack of range, and lack of fire power. The most powerful weapons used by Star Wars fighters are less powerful then Star Trek mortars.

Now you need to prove that the 5 star destroyers and Super Star Destroyer could bombard the Hoth base. There is no example that Star Destroyer or similar ships can even hit a planet from orbit from what I recall.

Well it would be more impressive if you posed the pic of Memory Alpha but yes its a large facility.

Memory Alpha doesn't have shields for symbolic reasons.

You have two examples of light minute ranges. I showed you like five last time of a light second or less.

That's nice, but completely irrelevant. Imperial ships might as well be stationary targets the way they maneuver, and they are being shot at by FTL weapons.. If a SD can't dodge the Rebel's Ion Canon at Hoth they have no chance of doing anything about the faster then light weapons Star Trek powers have, and Earth has had FTL weapons since before the Federation was formed.

Those torpedoes weren't being used to explode the planet, they were being used to shatter dilithium crystals which were about to explode the planet.

You really shouldn't put words in people mouths. I never claimed Picard was trying to destroy the planet read a bit more carefully. Read my posts like you claimed you do.

I was pointing out that that Photon Torpedos can bury themselves, and then explode. We see Dominion torpedos do the same thing with the Defiant's hull.

I do believe the city was protected and further belief it was a planetary shield but it is an assumption and it is not clearly required for that scene.

There had to be a shield over the planet, or a single torpedo would have turned anywhere hit into a crater, and at least badly damaged the city near the academy that was attacked. The only sane conclusion is that the United Federation of Planets used shield technologies they have to cover the entire planet.

Well I can poin to this G-canon quote:

The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.

Typically calced out to be about a megaton and we can forget about a glorified flak cannon shooting down an Acclamator.

Those calculations are based on real world USA small towns, and not on Star Wars small towns which a proton cannon would likely be able to destroy with a well placed shot. Small towns in Star Wars can be very small when the planetary population is in the thousands, and the natives are only about as tall as a clone trooper's knee.

First for this era there is not much in the way of expected threats. Second Starfleet seems the primary force to which such threats are met, local "defense fleets" are more of a last ditch sort of thing and will be highly dependent upon the race in question.

The Defense fleets are a first line of defense of a planet/planetary system because they can easily move, and anything ground based would be the last line of defense.

The UFP has been improving weapon and shield technologies throughout its existence, and implementing those technological improvements as they are "perfected" on their Star Ships. Why should we assume that the UFP would not do the same to their defensive fleets, and other defenses normally?

Why wouldn't the defensive fleets be capable of fighting expected threats like if the Klingons suddenly decided to attack? It doesn't matter if the other powers that can threaten you are friendly or not, you design your defenses to hold them off in case they decide not to be friendly any more.

What you are doing is taking a vague and unquantifiable quote, and then making a smurf load of assumptions that ignore that facts. The UFP is constantly upgrading their kit, and we see this throughout all of Star Trek.

I can. IIRC transporters typically have shorter ranges than weapons ranges and you have to lower your shields to beam troops down. Even without planetary shields you still have to take out the ground based weapons and if they are behind theater shields that just makes things harder. As well there is more to conquring them merely beaming troops down, they have to accomplish their goals whatever they may be.

If I recall correctly the Dominion has an unusually long transporter ranges, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is the fact that a faction like the Dominion can't beam through shields, the Dominion think nothing of killing off a population if it annoys them,

Star Trek mortars are in the low kiloton range, and small arms are in the mega to tera watt range.

We know a Galaxy class and an Intrepid class can beam hundreds in a single go. It would be likely the Dominion could do the same..

If there was no shield over Betazed then there is no way they could have held out for nearly half a day.. The planet would have been nuked or worse.

All the Dominion had to do was take down the shield over the planet, and then possibly take key locations

Where do they say that?

JANEWAY: Fire! 

TUVOK: The asteroid is fragmenting, but most of the debris is still on a collision course with the planet. 

JANEWAY: Target the fragments. Destroy them. 

CHAKOTAY: That asteroid should have been vaporised. What happened? 

KIM: Not sure. Sensors showed a simple nickel-iron composition. We shouldn't be seeing fragments more than a centimetre in diameter. 

SKLAR: Ambassador, I'm afraid I was right. This isn't going to work. The same thing happened to us yesterday. We tried to vaporize two incoming asteroids but they fragmented and struck the surface. 

TUVOK: I've destroyed most of the debris, Captain, however targeting scanners were unable to track two of the fragments. They have already entered the upper atmosphere. The debris impacted on the largest continent, approximately 500 kilometres from the southern tip. 

NEZU AMBASSADOR: The central desert. Fortunately that region isn't heavily populated.

As you can see, Rise is a lower limit because there is no evidence Voyager used a torpedo set to maximum yield, and the dialog implies that they had careful calculated how much boom they would need to vaporize the asteroid in a real world fashion. It doesn't hurt that there are higher, but less easily quantified examples of Photon Torpedo firepower.

Why does [Palpatine] remain on this ship at all? He should be hidden. He should be guarded. We should have had him outsystem hours ago!"

Ignoring the facts that a small town could be a town built by things almost the size of a meerkat for things about the size of meerkats, and have populations in the thousands at best, we know for a fact that ships rarely fire full power shots in Star Wars, and that the commander has to order such a thing..

I would like to know how this quote proves a Star Destroyer can endure serious combat at full power or otherwise for an hour or more? I don't see anything that talks about ship capabilities, and we know that during the Clone War it was standard practice to not fire at full power.

I would say not numerous would be a more appropiate descriptor. They are heavily focused siege engines essentially designed to crack planetary shields.

Which incidently does raise the point said shields have to be numerous enough to warrent such attention but on the other hand equally valid evidence says Alderaan didn't have such a shield and the ANH novel does state it had defenese as strong as any in the Empire. So Wars is a contridictory mess on that score.

Planetary shields are only theater shields in Star Wars, and they are usually turned on after the attacker has landed troops. I've only heard of maybe two planets that had defenses that would warrant such a weapon in the EU, and one of those planets is the capital. The Empire has a weapons to deal with a problem they don't have? Your entire argument for torpedo spheres seems to be the Empire is stupid, and in all honesty I like that answer as much as a physicist likes getting infinity as an answer.

The Empire won't be fielding torpedo spheres because they can't have many, and are needed back home.

Once more I don't disagree with you on that. What we disagree on the strenght of the TOS system. Your basic argument is that TOS pwns Star Wars so having outdated weapons systems is a no issue.

1) We don't know how outdate the defenses were. The quote is nearly unquantifiable. You keep harping about

2) You need to prove that Star Wars weapons have anti-shield properties like Star Trek weapons.(The Outrageous Okona)

3) You need to prove that Star Wars vessels can deliver the energy in the same manner as a Star Trek vessel. The only thing in Star Wars that can is a superlaser.

4) You need to show a single shot from a Star Wars ship can kill everything on a planet after breaching the shield.

Or the asylum is the source of the explosion which makes more sense then assuming the Connie has as inadvertant bleedage from firing main weapons planet busting firepower.

That only makes sense if you ignore the dialog, and what how we see Shield generators behave when shields are beached in Star Trek that I know of.

I never claimed a Wars ship could "focus phasers to narrow beam" and I explictly stated the shield in the episode was good enough to ward off an ISD on its lonesome.

Being able to focus all the energy in one spot with an anti-shield weapon was why the Enterprise's crew had a chance of breaching the shield. It wasn't a matter of simply hitting the shield hard enough.

The standard fleet in Star Wars seems to be about one to three ships, and those ungodly huge fleets we see in TESB and ROTJ are one of a kind, and could only be maintained for a short amount of time. Your entire plan for the Empire is to give them resources they do not have, and claiming they will use tactics they have never used.

That its simply an insane figure which doesn't mesh with the whole of Trek.

Since ever series to carry the Star Trek brand has at least one example of such firepower it fits perfectly in line with the whole of Star Trek. Your odd quirk of nerfing and with holding technologies from the Star Trek side while give Star Wars things they never had and or could not afford is rather annoying.

Yes. The Enterprise-D was quite good at drilling through planet's crusts. I believe they usually took some minor adjusting before they did so. It is what it is but correct me if I'm wrong but even flinging gigatons become useless with such demostrated power.

The Enterprise-D's crew were very careful to cause as little damage as possible instead of just firing at full power. They didn't want a TDIC or Booby Trap to happen. Drilling is a carefully controlled activity. You don't want to just blow the hell out of something.

That is nice, do we have a calc on its firepower?

The Verteron Array was a threat to cities on the Earth, the Moon, and ships like the NX-1 could be very badly damaged by it. That would give it a few hundred kilotons at least if calculations for a cloaked mine that made a nice a nice sized hole in the NX-01 are being remembered correctly.

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 97&page=21

REED: They're on the surface. 
ARCHER: Where? 

REED: They've landed near the verteron array. It's used to redirect comets. 

HOSHI: They're sending a subspace message on all frequencies. 

PAXTON [on viewscreen]: My name is John Frederick Paxton. I've just taken over the verteron array on Mars. I can now fire on any ship or facility in the system. 

(The big ray gun turns and fires a beam)

REED: He's targeted Earth's moon. 

(A new lunar crater is born) 

PAXTON [on viewscreen]: I have no intention of using this weapon again, provided that every single non-human in our system leaves immediately. A new era is at hand, an era that will expose the concept of interspecies unity as an absolute and vicious lie. An era that will witness the advent of a human-centred consciousness

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =98&page=2

REED: Massive power surge! We've lost half our relays. The beam was only two percent of the array's total output. He could have vaporised us.

The point that you seemed to miss is that the Verteron array beam is faster then light, able to target ships as fast and maneuverable as an NX-01, has an effective range of light hours. There are no ship based defenses in Star Wars that can deal with something like that, and nothing in Star Wars can even see a weapon like that, and this is a primitive particle beam used for civilian purposes by Star Trek standards.

To each his own I guess. I simply found them being aghast at how two people could be divided on economic lines while the Cold War was still ongoing to be smugly condencending to the brave Men and Women defending us from the *spit* Commies.

I see it as the writer being optimistic that the Cold War would end peacefully, and both sides would learn from it. A pure capitalist system is rather unpleasant for most living under it often, and a true Marxist system is pretty much wishful thinking. The lines in no way insult anyone, but illustrate how different things are in the 24th century of Star Trek, It's not like Star Trek Earth is our Earth.

More like unable. Everything had to be debated, you had slimy pols who were in the Trade-Feds clutches.

As much as the Trade Federation was corrupt they were the only shipping compony that could legally work in the Republic, and only really cared about making a profit. Pirates would cut into their profits, and so would pirate hunting. They are just the type to try to share the burden of dealing with the pirates by getting the rest of the Republic to shoulder some of the bill.

It is more likely the Naboo and Alderaan types who would be against having a standing military, or things are just really peaceful even during the wars given what we see.

They both seem to be equally unpractical. Hollywood military design is fairly lacking.

Not really. For example: An AT-TE is a better over all design(if barely) then an AT-AT or an AT-ST.

Imperial Star Destroyers are meant to be big and scary while saving money in the fact they perform the duties of a Republic Attack Cruiser and Acclamator. From what I've heard something like 200 hundred Dreadnaught class has the tonnage of 11 ISD, but something like 3 to 6 Dreadnaught class can match 1 or 2 ISD.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnau ... vy_cruiser
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... t_size.jpg

it is stated the Empire was going with style over substance hence the ultimate example of that are the Death Stars. This works because the Republic and the Empire had large numbers of ignorant stone age members, and Palpitine was insane and in it for the evils.

It appeared to be set up that every planet was in charge of their own defense, making the Republic more a loose confederation, which while possesing of obvious problems doesn't equal being preachy pacfifists. Now in the EU the Republic of the era does come across as very preachy, in at least the Darth Plagious novel any planet even really owning a dedicated military was considering wrong and in times of crisis it seemed essentially mercenaries were to be hired to deal with the situation.

That is what is shown in Episodes 2, 3 and much of SW:TCW IMO. I really don't read much of the EU. 5 million troops makes the Republic senate freak out. It makes it sound like most races in the GFFA are absurdly docile.

Realistically there should be an interpol or FBI type organization, but there isn't as far as i can tell. There doesn't even seem to be a Mutual Defense treaty.

That has more to do with sci-fi writers having no sense of scale then the Republic being preachy pacifism

The smaller the numbers in the PT the more sense the OT makes. Honestly, everything makes more sense if all the numbers are small. Star Wars never pretended to be realistic, and it makes all the super weapons like the Malevolence make sense. It is the same type of story as Flash Gordon. The writers know exactly what they are doing with the numbers.

Well judging from TPM a dispute between two worlds would likely be negotiated by a Jedi represenative. Frankly through I think your wandering off track here, you were complaining the Old Republic was a bunch of preachy peace lovers, more so than early TNG, not the flaws you disagree with concerning the Republic's political structure.

Given the way the Viceroy acted you would think he had never met a Jedi. He acted like they were assassins. When there is a blockade in SWTCW there is no talk of sending Jedi or that Jedi were sent before the Clone War that I can recall.

Heck, in TPM the Republic didn't even consider Jedi respectable sources of information that Naboo was being invaded by someone at least posing as the Trade Federation. If the Jedi were actually agents of the Republic their word should have been enough for the Republic to take action.

They were never observed with torpedoes to the best of my recollection. And it never fought a drawn out fight with the Enterprise only turning and running when confronted, except for some slight of hand done by Riker where he faked lowering the Enterprise's shields.

So the merc ship had weapons that might have been able to disable the shields of the Enterprise-D? That sounds like the Mercenary ship may have had an anti-shield weapon. There are just too many unknowns to quantify the ship.

That a lower tier defense system can't hope to defeat more than two Galaxy class starships and in likelyhood would fall to far less. We know a mercenary ship equal to or less then to the Enterprise had a chance of defeating the outpost in fifteen minutes.

We have a mercenary ship that apparently had a weapon that might be able to bring down the shields of a Galaxy Class ship implying the mercenary's ship was likely fitted with anti-shield weapons.

The problem is we don't know enough to quantify the ship like you seem to think we do. How did the mercenaries plan to bring down the shield? Why would they believe they could bring down the shields of a Galaxy class ship?

You are also forgetting that Star Trek ships have far more control over the weapons on their ships then those of Star Wars. We see that beaching a shield requires a very focused beam with anti-shield properties for example rather then just blasting at random places.

No. I said if you believe a Connie is a match for an ISD than your base assumption, my forces are so powerful even horribly hindered I still pwn you without question, was valid. If you are like me who doesn't see it that way then the assumption doesn't hold.

A Constitution class can kill everything on a planet with a single shot, and repeatedly took planet killing shots in multiple episodes.

Well fleets were bigger in TESB and ROTJ, and they did consider an orbital bombardment, and the Imperial sourcebook does list lesser crafts which are supposed to flesh out the Star Destroyers we see. Such as Carrack cruisers who were named refrenced in the ROTS novel.

I'd like the quotes about orbital bombardment from TESB and ROTJ. I've heard of these, but can't recall them from the movies..

These lesser ships used by the Republic and Empire never appear in the movies even though they should have, and that means they aren't likely to be used to invade an alien territory. Heck they rarely show up in SW:TCW, and they aren't sent to invade a planet.

It has phasers and possibly photon torpedoes. Weather doesn't seem like it was designed to repulse.

^_^For all we know the phasers and photon Torpedos are really there to deal with the local wildlife.^_^

Seriously, those phasers are like meant to take down shuttles. The type talked about in "Who Watches the Watchers.", and we don't know what type of photon torpedo they would have.

No. It simply means we take Paris not freezing to death with a grain of salt.

We know that all humans have latent psychic powers in Star Trek, and all humans have minor psychic powers because .it is stated in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"(TOS).

Besides there are real world humans who do what Tom did only naked now that I think about it. The difference is people are rare, and Tom was considered normal.

The point is its an old west program it wouldn't have forcefields as forcefields, as opposed to faking solidness, and either Worf somehow reprogramed the holodeck or generated a forcefield.

Everything in the holodeck is force fields normally. Worf was likely being targeted by force fields that simulate bullets. That is what Picardf seems to have used in First Contact.

I don't know. I do know the scene was supposed to show how exceptional Data was not his footwear.

I watch a lot of Top Gear, so being able to get the needed traction is something that comes to mind for me when I see or think about such a scene. It doesn't matter how strong or tuff Data is if he can't get the needed traction. A similar problem happens when Data runs superhumanly fast. Either Data wears custom made shoes, or Star Fleet shoes issue are far more advanced then they are in the 20th/21st century.

How often do characters in Star Trek who are wearing Star Fleet issue footwear slip? I can't think of a time that didn't involve the person flying across the room.

You posted it in reply to querying you saying uniforms provide protection against enviromental extremes seemingly with shields. If you don't think it is proof of shielding technology why did you bring it up?

Then there has been a major communication failure. I've been trying to argue from the beginning that Star Fleet uniforms are composed of advanced materials that protect the wearer, and may have protective energy/force fields. To assume only fields being used would be silly. It is only logical to think you would design a uniform that be comfortable in situations Star Fleet personnel are going to have to deal with like plasma fires on ships, ice worlds, lava worlds and so on. The Federation members are from lava worlds, ice worlds, and who knows what else after all.

I believe it was Emissary(TNG), DataLore, and "The Siege of AR-558 that showed Klingon armor, Federation uniforms, and rock/cave wall(possibly shielded) having similar visual effects when shot with Phasers and Disruptors..

I don't. Nor do I need to. You proposed a theroy and I showed you how it doesn't work. Merely because an explanation has not been determined yet does not mean your proven wrong theory must be correct.

I've provided evidence to support my claim. You have not provided evidence to support your claim to the contrary. You made a claim that you have failed to support with evidence. The burden of proof is on you, and you can't ignore things characters do in canon just because you don't find the implications to your liking.

Your entire argument hinges n the fact that no one has directly credited the uniforms as far as I can tell.

You have two options given the evidence:
1)Star Trek humans are superhuman by modern real world Earth standards.

2)The clothing humans wear in Star Trek lets them do things that modern real world humans would consider superhuman.

I prefer being specific at least in these matters. Having ones entire coat set on fire is more impressive than having ones sleeve set on fire.

The sleeve of Dr.Crusher's jacket was lit on fire with a phaser by Lore who was not trying to kill her.

There was a flash and flame, and Dr. Crusher was running out of the room as Lore wanted her to.

Dr. Crusher's arm and uniform were not burnt, or even damaged in the slightest.

That tells us the uniform or jacket is made of something protective, uses some sort of shielding, or both.

Occams razor. You posit the uniform is given him protection but yet you admit he is having protection on areas not protected by his uniform so you then add that he has an unstated energy shield around him. Conversely I say the cold is simply not affecting him in the way such tempatures would normally do so.

Fact: Tom Paris's head and hands are exposed to -22 degree Celsius air for hours, but Tom did not suffer anything beyond discomfort.

Fact: No one was surprised a human would only suffer discomfort in a -22 degree Celsius environment for hours,

Conclusion:
Either all Star Trek humans can shrug off extreme cold for hours, or it is the result of unmentioned technology at work.

Occams razor. You posit the uniform is given him protection but yet you admit he is having protection on areas not protected by his uniform so you then add that he has an unstated energy shield around him. Conversely I say the cold is simply not affecting him in the way such tempatures would normally do so.

Then you are arguing that superhuman abilities are common place in Star Trek to the point everyone just assumes you have them. There evidence to support that i guess since it is stated in TOS, but then every superhuman feat is then not a goof up by the production team. I've already listed the silliness this leads to. Star Wars or most settings for that matter don't stand a chance. What chance would Star Wars have against planets full of people who have a chance of dodging light speed or faster weapons. I'm trying to nerf Star Trek humans here with technologies that won't factor into a fight. If it isn't the tech then it is all the user. i guess the only thing special about the younger crusher is the degree to which he can to stuff in your eyes..

Its fairly simple. If he's protected both where he wears the uniform and where he doesn't it can't be the uniform. There is no reason to assume its the uniform and therefore no reason to imagine forcefields were none are implied. Its an outlier, a bit of bad writing call it what you will. Not something to try and base an entire argument around.

Here you go again taking away any hope Star Wars has against the god like races in Star Trek in your eyes at least. I'm trying to keep all the races in Star Trek being entities that make Galen Marek seem unimpressive.

Example?

Example?

ITCHELL: Yore relieved, Mister Alden. 

ALDEN: Acknowledged, Mister Mitchell. 

KIRK: Screen on. 

KELSO: Screen on, sir. Approaching galaxy edge, sir. 

KIRK: Neutralise warp, Mister Mitchell. Hold this position. 

MITCHELL: Neutralise warp, sir. 

KIRK: Address intercraft. 

MITCHELL: Intercraft open. 

KIRK: This is the Captain speaking. The object we encountered is a ship's disaster recorder, apparently ejected from the S.S. Valiant two hundred years ago. 

SPOCK: The tapes are burnt out. Trying the memory banks. 

KIRK: We hope to learn from the recorder what the Valiant was doing here and what destroyed the vessel. We'll move out into our probe as soon as we have those answers. All decks, stand by. 

MITCHELL: Department heads, sir. You wanted everybody on the Bridge before we left the galaxy. Jones. SMITH: The name's Smith, sir. 

SULU: Astro sciences standing by, Captain. 

SCOTT: Engineering division ready, as always. 

PIPER: Life sciences ready, sir. This is Doctor Dehner, who joined the ship at the Aldebaran colony. 

DEHNER: Psychiatry, Captain. My assignment is to study crew reaction in emergency conditions. 

SPOCK: Getting something from the recorder now. 

DEHNER: lf there was an emergency, I'd be interested in how that crew reacted, too. 

MITCHELL: Improving the breed, Doctor? Is that your line? 

DEHNER: I heard that's more your specialty, Commander, line included. 

MITCHELL: (to Kelso) Walking freezer unit. 

SPOCK: Decoding memory banks. I'll try to interpolate. The Valiant had encountered a magnetic space storm and was being swept in this direction. 

KIRK: The old impulse engines weren't strong enough. 

SPOCK: Swept past this point, about a half light year out of the galaxy, they were thrown clear, turned, and headed back into the galaxy here. I'm not getting it all. The tapes are pretty badly burned. Sounds like the ship had encountered some unknown force. Now, orders, counter orders, repeated urgent requests for information from the ship's computer records for anything concerning ESP in human beings. 

KIRK: Extrasensory perception. Doctor Dehner, how are you on ESP? 

DEHNER: In tests I've taken, my ESP rated rather high. 

KIRK: I'm asking what you know about ESP. 

DEHNER: It is a fact that some people can sense future happenings, read the backs of playing cards and so on, but the esper capacity is always quite limited. 

SPOCK: Severe damage. Seven crewmen dead. No, make that six. One crewman seemed to have recovered. That's when they became interested in extrasensory perception. More than interested, almost frantic about it. No, this must be garbled. I get something about destruct. I must have read it wrong. It sounded like the captain giving an order to destroy his own ship.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Extrasensory_perception

It is common enough everyone gets tested

Too bad he only uses it when he's off camera instead of when it would be useful.

It was meant more or less as a joke, but since you took it seriously...

Performing Titan's Turn requires superhuman reflexes, but if you did the run it is likely you did the maneuver.

Picard dodged a phaser beam seemingly by manipulating the flow of time from his perspective in conspiracy.

Weaselly Crusher stopped time from his perspective.(The only known human to have conscious control of this power, but the Traveler's race can do it.)

In all likely hood Bones altered the flow of time from his perspective without realizing it.

I'm claiming the writers didn't get the tempature right for how the characters were written.

Freezing temperatures for hours in only spandex is going to be very bad for most humans aside from the extremely rare super according to real life.

Does there need to be temporal manipulation to dodge a phaser beam?

The phasers on ships are faster then light, and the phaser beam Picard dodged was moving abnormally slowly as I recall.

This is the titan's turn thing again isn't it?

Yep, I believe I showed you how much time the pilot has to make the turn before slamming nose first into Titan at 70% the speed of light.

Titan's Turn is performed manually. What Titan's turn does imply is the likely hood of time dilation technology.

LAFORGE: Oh, yeah. You set a course directly for Titan, hold it until you're just brushing the atmosphere, throw the helm hard over and whip around the moon at point seven c.

.7c is about 210,000 kilometers per second
1/210,000= 4.7619048E-06= .0000047619048
1 km every .0000047619048 seconds

Titan's upper atmosphere is about 975 kilometers from the surface.
975*.0000047619048= 0.00464285718

The pilot of the shuttle will have about 0.00464285718 seconds before hitting Titan, but human reaction times are about 0.19 seconds for light and and 0.16 seconds for sound if I'm reading this right. I'm not sure even world record holders could do it.

http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/ ... 20Stimulus

Well I just don't see things your way. Nine times out of ten your examples require a very selective interpentation and then comes into conflict with the rest of the series when they don't use these special powers.

Because you say so?

We routinely see ships functioning at relativistic speeds with no time dilation being mentioned as an issue. I assume there is some unmentioned technology at work.

Tom Paris does nothing that is impossible for a human to do in the real world. It is just really rare. What makes his -22 degree feat odd is that it does not surprise anyone.

It is bluntly stated that humans in Star Trek have latent psychic powers, and they test for it. They even have the ability to look for psychic energy with tricorders.

You brought up the alien first talking about how it passed out. I am simply pointing out it was sitting there breathing everything in, fully exposed to any and all heat far longer than Chakotay. Either it can be used as an example to judge the hostility of the enviroment or it can't. As it stands I see nothing to suggest it was Chakotay's uniform which allowed him to survive as opposed to simple hollywood phsyics as it deals with lava fields.

You are breaking SOD.

We already know from Datalore that Star Fleet uniforms don't burn, and protect the person wearing it. Heat isn't an issue.

It is implied in the the -22c degree incident with Tom that exposed skin is somehow protected unless all humans have gotten genetically enhanced, but that would be against the law, and they were starting to run out of time.

In Basics we see Chakotay fearlessly charges through a cloud of vapors implying he had nothing to fear from poisonous gas or steam. Given Star Fleet officers and enlisted are high educated inthe sciences they must have all known the dangers of a volcanon.

Well it beats trying to form some super never remarked upon, never seen again shoe sole based upon that scene.

Because "you say so" isn't an argument, and it isn't like we get a detailed technical run down of every little peace of technology(thankfully).

Worf manipulated the forcefields and holograms in the holodeck with the forcefields and holograms in the holodeack and the battery from his com-badge.

Data grabbed a hologram and force fields that was trying to run him over, and used real shoes to do it. Find an example of Star Fleet personnel slipping and falling and I will concede the shoes are at best unique to Data or a visual effect error.

The various armbands things they slapped on their arms? Those are presumbly the shield generators.

LAFORGE: If we beamed aboard the Enterprise, we'd be frozen in time just like they are. 

PICARD: Well, we have to find some way of staying unfrozen. Mister La Forge, what about a subspace forcefield like the one we used on Devidia Two? Could something like that protect us from the effects of the temporal fragment? 

LAFORGE: Possibly. We'd need an awfully sensitive phase discriminator in order to moderate that kind of field. 

DATA: The emergency transporter armbands contain a type seven phase discriminator. It should be possible to reconfigure their subspace emitters. 

LAFORGE: Yeah. Yeah, that would certainly isolate us from the effects of the other time frame. But if we wanted to interact with that environment, we'd have to restrict the field. It would have to be practically skintight. 

PICARD: Mister Data? 

DATA: I will attempt to narrow the field, sir. 

LAFORGE: Captain, I think this is going to work, but it's going to take some time. 

PICARD: Well, Mister La Forge, it would seem that time is something we have plenty of.

It's things like this that makes me just nod my head, and say that yes they can do things they really should not be able to. They really should not be able to make the shield skin tight..

Fine then. You still claim there is a forcefield around each person which does not impede their ability to interact with the enviroment. Yet there they were struggling to build such a forcefield.

When does anyone struggle to build a personal shield of any type in Star Trek when they have been taught how to? They just grab some bits and peaces off the shelf, and cobble them together.

There could be an argument made that personal shields and armor are used by the Klingons and the Federation in Way of The Warrior.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 06&page=22
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bertram_%28male%29

It is rather interesting that a guy who got shot in the chest by a Klingon Disruptor happens to be a weapons collector.

Okay. It still supposed to be rather than some wierd armor meant to resemble muscle tone.

Making the armor that shape would allow for better freedom of movement wouldn't it?

What you are describing sounds like motocross pads and football pads.
Motocross pads
http://www.bikemag.com/files/2011/01/wp ... cket-d.jpg
http://www.bikemag.com/blog/preview-fox ... tive-gear/

Football pads
http://www.dowdlesports.com/catalog/ath ... pt1000.bmp
http://www.dowdlesports.com/catalog/ath ... r_pads.htm

First wanted to make sure I had the right quote. And as Preao says its nonsensical. Unlike Paris bravely chasing that mouse.

You are honestly arguing that first doesn't know what his armor can do, and where he has been?

On the other end of the scale we'd have the docking bay shootout scene, the bowl like craters blasted into the wall at Bespin. Power settings would best explain the descrepency.

Blaster bolts and similar technologies like Turbolasers try to tunnel into what they hit, and then explode. This is how they get the flak effect, and why they often act like buried charges.

The problem with your examples is that we don't know what was behind/in the wall, and blaster damage tends to be inconsistent for seemingly no reason.

In cloud city we don't know what was behind the area shot with the blaster.

Han was shooting into Stucco covered mud in episode 4, but the storm troopers in the same scene did not have anywhere near as impressive showings.

This has as much if not more firepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1j ... =endscreen

As well it isn't like phasers always leave a burn mark when they kill someone.

Actually being burnt by a phaser is very common even with stun settings. as I recall. We know for a fact phasers have mega-joule or several orders of magnitude higher outputs.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the halls in Star Fleet ships are made with things like tritanium.

I have no emperical data to do so. So in the absence of evidence and until shown otherwise I assumed him to be comparable to a T-normal human. Much simplier than assuming he can basicly immerse himself in molten lava and Chakotey has a protective forcefield.

So you assume he is just like a human in spite of knowing the kid is not human. I'm sure there is a flaw in your logic there.

The facts remain the same: Chakotey knowing the dangers showed no fear of poison gasses found in a volcanic eruption.

I hope you do no expect anyone to read this. I mean seriously. I've read books shorter than this.

I'm simply going to assume you are right and make all concessions on behalf of Sonofccn right now. CONCEDED. Moving on............



Also, yes. IIRC, Tritanium alloy is used in ST hulls.