Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

[359]

Klingon command said Federation ship Enterprise, surrender and prepare to be board.
If you like see evidence watch this video form 4 minute and 6 secounds to 4 minute 16 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoIVBXRLYrk
Or if you own Netflix watch last 2 minute and 32 seconds to the last 2 minute and 21 seconds.

Yes, I just watched the episode a few days ago. It seamed, at least to me, that the Klingons never actually boarded the Enterprise. They asked for Picard's surrender and all but the continued phaser fire from the Enterprise seemed to give them an answer, so they continued fireing on her. Now I know that it may seam to be able to go either way in terms of whether the Enterprise was boarded or not, she had lost main shields at that point. But Picard's continued fire would prevent the from dropping their shields in order to beam over boarding parties. In the end the Klingons seemed quite content just blowing the Enterprise to smithereens.

As for other statement more half starfleet been destroy how much Klingon Empire been destroyed and Riker statement that starfleet surly another ship even if old I never said that war going great UFP.

I agree that neither point on its own completely proves that the Federation was loosing, I use them to lend weight to the idea thet they were not faring to well.

Pircard statement depend UFP intelligence be right and on top of that Section 31 deploy biological weapon strong evidence they did weaken Klingon less able fight effectively. The fact Klingon readily board starship about exploded in less then 2 minute total crazy. Not been crazy but never see Klingon do any near that craziness. Strong evidence Klingon infect disease section 31 gave them. Or please explain why Klingon beam into starship in less 2 minute going to expoded make. UFP find out Klingon more crazy thing lead defeat guessing they not died out. Major deside factor if side wins or loses.

First, I have not seen any evidence for the use of biological weapons being used. And second, there is no evidence that Starfleet Intelligance's information should be considered incorrect. As for the beaming see above.

[Mike DiCenso]

First, I have not seen any evidence for the use of biological weapons being used. And second, there is no evidence that Starfleet Intelligance's information should be considered incorrect. As for the beaming see above.

As much as I hate possibly helping out Jason here, I have to point out that in Trek canon there is some evidence for Section 31 doing this sort of thing:

- First off, the pre-Federation Section 31 was involved in helping to spread the mutagenic Augment virus amongst the Klingons as seen in ST:ENT's "Affliction" and "Divergence".

- Second, the Federation Section 31 most definitely infected Odo with the anti-Changeling virus, which in turn was spread to the other Founders when he joined up with the Great Link.

So there is a possibility of something like this happening. Is there any evidence of that happening in "Yesterday's Enterprise"? Possibly. Guinan does say that over 40 billion had died. Whether that was strictly Federation casualties or a combination of losses on both sides is never made clear. Either way that represents nearly six modern real-life Earth populations being wiped from existence. But all of that could be from planetary bombardment scenarios or other large-scale genocidal pogroms, like what the Dominion carried out on the Cardassian people in DS9's "What You Leave Behind".
-Mike

[359]

As much as I hate possibly helping out Jason here, I have to point out that in Trek canon there is some evidence for Section 31 doing this sort of thing:

Yes, they have done it before and afterwards, in both the Dominion war and to the Klingons before in "Enterprise." Also there is no indication that Section 31 is using that tactic in this conflict, and throwing in unknown factors into consideration does not make any sense.

Guinan does say that over 40 billion had died. Whether that was strictly Federation casualties or a combination of losses on both sides is never made clear. Either way that represents nearly six modern real-life Earth populations being wiped from existence. But all of that could be from planetary bombardment scenarios or other large-scale genocidal pogroms, like what the Dominion carried out on the Cardassian people in DS9's "What You Leave Behind".

In DS9: "Statistical Probabilities" Bashier and his group projected 900 billion casualties, now it is not made clear if this is both Dominion and Alliance or just the alliance which would suffer these losses. Either way 40 billion seems to be a reasonable loss on that scale without any plague, and including genocide.

Also it is likely that Starfleet Intelligence would have noticed such an infection, so either it does not exist or is inconsequential to the outcome of the war (either way it would have been taken into account in Picard's statement.

[Jasonb]

As much as I hate possibly helping out Jason here, I have to point out that in Trek canon there is some evidence for Section 31 doing this sort of thing:

Yes, they have done it before and afterwards, in both the Dominion war and to the Klingons before in "Enterprise." Also there is no indication that Section 31 is using that tactic in this conflict, and throwing in unknown factors into consideration does not make any sense.

Guinan does say that over 40 billion had died. Whether that was strictly Federation casualties or a combination of losses on both sides is never made clear. Either way that represents nearly six modern real-life Earth populations being wiped from existence. But all of that could be from planetary bombardment scenarios or other large-scale genocidal pogroms, like what the Dominion carried out on the Cardassian people in DS9's "What You Leave Behind".

In DS9: "Statistical Probabilities" Bashier and his group projected 900 billion casualties, now it is not made clear if this is both Dominion and Alliance or just the alliance which would suffer these losses. Either way 40 billion seems to be a reasonable loss on that scale without any plague, and including genocide.

Also it is likely that Starfleet Intelligence would have noticed such an infection, so either it does not exist or is inconsequential to the outcome of the war (either way it would have been taken into account in Picard's statement.

Fact every other major intelligence agency include Tal Shiar , Klingon intelligence and Obsidian Order total unaware of the Section 31 biological attack the Dominion meaning Starfleet intelligence no reason think Starfleet intelligence know better.

The fact Klingon voice said surrender and prepares to board when USS Enterprise D is about exploded in less then 2 minutes. Suggesting that Starfleet intelligence unaware how badly disease effecting Klingon Empire guessing aware at all.

Depend on first warn sign before it kill it victim would depend on if UFP intelligence even notice it.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, they have done it before and afterwards, in both the Dominion war and to the Klingons before in "Enterprise." Also there is no indication that Section 31 is using that tactic in this conflict, and throwing in unknown factors into consideration does not make any sense.

Oh I'm just pointing out that it has been done directly and indirectly by S31. So there is precedence for such a thing canonically. And another thing, I am certainly not saying Jason is right about the Federation winning in "Yesterday's Enterprise". Picard clearly states that they were losing, or so badly off that Starfleet command believed defeat was inevitable and surrender likely in six months.

In DS9: "Statistical Probabilities" Bashier and his group projected 900 billion casualties, now it is not made clear if this is both Dominion and Alliance or just the alliance which would suffer these losses. Either way 40 billion seems to be a reasonable loss on that scale without any plague, and including genocide.

Also it is likely that Starfleet Intelligence would have noticed such an infection, so either it does not exist or is inconsequential to the outcome of the war (either way it would have been taken into account in Picard's statement.

Yes, they did. But that was based on a flawed set of analysis since obviously the war was eventually won by the Federation and it's allies. Also the Jack Pack did not even know that S31 had spread a virus to the Founders, and might not have even factored that into their equations.

But that's neither here nor there. The 900 billion number, while not directly stated as such, is in context of the Federation losing the war, and given the Jack Pack and Bashier would not care as much about Dominion causalties as they would Federation ones, it is the most likely connection one can make in regards to that figure.

With the "Yesterday's Enterprise" 40 billion given by Gunian is not given by her in such a context. Picard later on to Captain Garrett indicates surrender is likely in 6 months to get her to go back. But even if the 40 billion number were for the Federation only, we can make a reasonable assumption that winning or not, the Klingons have taken similar causalties, maybe even considerably more into order to overrun the Federation forces.
-Mike

[Picard]

Actually, majority of those 40 billion would probably have been civilians; as such, I don't think Klingon casualties would be in double digit billions, and even single-digit billions are suspect; we have no indication Federation ever managing to invade Klingon territory during course of the war, and as such most Federation casualties would have been civilians, as opposed to Klingons, most - if not all - of whose casualties would have been military personnel.

[Mike DiCenso]

Even during the worst times of the Dominion War, the Federation still managed to strike deep into Cardassian territory. There is no reason to think that the Klingons did not suffer attacks on their own worlds, and given the three-to-one odds they had to use against the E-D with the big K'Vort-class BoPs, with one of them being destroyed in taking her down, that doesn't speak well to the Klingons getting away with minimal damage in the conflict.
-Mike

[Khas]

Agreed. Even if the Klingon Empire had won, it would have been a pyhrric victory. Likewise, if the Federation had won, it would have been the same. The winner would be spending so much time licking their wounds, that they wouldn't have truly been able to conquer the other.

[Jasonb]

Agreed. Even if the Klingon Empire had won, it would have been a pyhrric victory. Likewise, if the Federation had won, it would have been the same. The winner would be spending so much time licking their wounds, that they wouldn't have truly been able to conquer the other.

Pircard statement being to make sense Pircard likely meant political well to fight. UFP unlikely well have major population center destroy over Territory disputation. To Federation Council they left no choice because other option unacceptable. Once we talk 100 billion deaths over disruption territory the UFP feel have no choice but surrender. Not becasue UFP could not fight on but because death the amount death unaccepted. For Klingon never honor to surrender of UFP surrender honor option when over disputation territory rather have major population center get destroy. Who know Klingon surrender terms might been just lack able occupation entire UFP does mean lack take major recourse rick areas and requires UFP pay them tribulation the UFP member world in neutral zone territory between Klingon Empire and UFP as buffer zone.

The Dominion had trouble control entire UFP Territory ,Romulan and Klingon Empire what likelihood of the Klingon Empire have the able to carry that I say near to impossible.
UFP might able control entire Klingon Empire after all some world in Klingon Empire might not be happy under KLingon rule first place. Only reason UFP able control terriory they control 8,000 light years across because member want to be part UFP.

[359]

Pircard statement being to make sense Pircard likely meant political well to fight. UFP unlikely well have major population center destroy over Territory disputation. To Federation Council they left no choice because other option unacceptable. Once we talk 100 billion deaths over disruption territory the UFP feel have no choice but surrender. Not becasue UFP could not fight on but because death the amount death unaccepted. For Klingon never honor to surrender of UFP surrender honor option when over disputation territory rather have major population center get destroy. Who know Klingon surrender terms might been just lack able occupation entire UFP does mean lack take major recourse rick areas and requires UFP pay them tribulation the UFP member world in neutral zone territory between Klingon Empire and UFP as buffer zone.

Given the way the Klingons treat their conquered territories, it would not make any sense for Picard's statement to be that of political rather than military nature. In the Dominion War, casualties were predicted to be near 900 billion and that did not stop the Federation from fighting, so in a similar situation with the Klingons the Federation would likely keep fighting for their freedom just as in the war with the Dominion. The Klingons are not known for their kind treatment of conquered peoples, in fact it is quite the opposite.

UFP might able control entire Klingon Empire after all some world in Klingon Empire might not be happy under KLingon rule first place. Only reason UFP able control terriory they control 8,000 light years across because member want to be part UFP.

The Federation also contains many colonies along with their member worlds.

Agreed. Even if the Klingon Empire had won, it would have been a pyhrric victory. Likewise, if the Federation had won, it would have been the same. The winner would be spending so much time licking their wounds, that they wouldn't have truly been able to conquer the other.

I agree as well, even in the best of circumstances the Federation and the Klingon Empire do not appear to be powerful enough to completely absorb the other. They are just to large.

[Jasonb]

Pircard statement being to make sense Pircard likely meant political well to fight. UFP unlikely well have major population center destroy over Territory disputation. To Federation Council they left no choice because other option unacceptable. Once we talk 100 billion deaths over disruption territory the UFP feel have no choice but surrender. Not becasue UFP could not fight on but because death the amount death unaccepted. For Klingon never honor to surrender of UFP surrender honor option when over disputation territory rather have major population center get destroy. Who know Klingon surrender terms might been just lack able occupation entire UFP does mean lack take major recourse rick areas and requires UFP pay them tribulation the UFP member world in neutral zone territory between Klingon Empire and UFP as buffer zone.

Given the way the Klingons treat their conquered territories, it would not make any sense for Picard's statement to be that of political rather than military nature. In the Dominion War, casualties were predicted to be near 900 billion and that did not stop the Federation from fighting, so in a similar situation with the Klingons the Federation would likely keep fighting for their freedom just as in the war with the Dominion. The Klingons are not known for their kind treatment of conquered peoples, in fact it is quite the opposite.


Klingon not likley able conquest entire UFP. that way beyond there able. This was Territory war over disputatious territories . The saw war DS9 when the UFP fighting against Klingon Empire war was over disputation Territories not aim conquest entire UFP or even Earth other member planets. UFP prefer surrender losing good amount Territory rather having sacrifice major population centers. Yes UFP likely relocation billions of people because surrender terms.

[359]

Klingon not likley able conquest entire UFP. that way beyond there able.

Yes, I agree with that. But It does not require that the Klingons will be any nicer than usual with their conquered subjects.

This was Territory war over disputatious territories . The saw war DS9 when the UFP fighting against Klingon Empire war was over disputation Territories not aim conquest entire UFP or even Earth other member planets.

I am assuming that you are referencing the Federation-Klingon War (2372-2373) directly before the Dominion War.

UFP prefer surrender losing good amount Territory rather having sacrifice major population centers. Yes UFP likely relocation billions of people because surrender terms.

They expected to be forced to surrender within six months, this implies that there was no foreseeable way of winning the war. It was not just some border skirmish, this was the result of all of the mistrust during the original series boiling up into a large scale conflict. Surrendering to the Klingons is never a good idea, much less after you have been fighting with them for several decades and managed to do some serious damage to their forces. Needless to say they will not treat you with much kindness. Needing to relocate some of your population would be the least of your worries.

[Jasonb]

Klingon not likley able conquest entire UFP. that way beyond there able.

Yes, I agree with that. But It does not require that the Klingons will be any nicer than usual with their conquered subjects.

This was Territory war over disputatious territories . The saw war DS9 when the UFP fighting against Klingon Empire war was over disputation Territories not aim conquest entire UFP or even Earth other member planets.

I am assuming that you are referencing the Federation-Klingon War (2372-2373) directly before the Dominion War.

UFP prefer surrender losing good amount Territory rather having sacrifice major population centers. Yes UFP likely relocation billions of people because surrender terms.

They expected to be forced to surrender within six months, this implies that there was no foreseeable way of winning the war. It was not just some border skirmish, this was the result of all of the mistrust during the original series boiling up into a large scale conflict. Surrendering to the Klingons is never a good idea, much less after you have been fighting with them for several decades and managed to do some serious damage to their forces. Needless to say they will not treat you with much kindness. Needing to relocate some of your population would be the least of your worries.

Often surrender terms what fit your interest best and Klingon best interest would likely be demand UFP pay tribulation to Klingon Empire and Klingon Empire gain control disputation areas. Likely be the must they ask for simple factor they protect Territory took UFP from Cardassion Union and Romulus Star Empire and maybe even Breen and might few other powers as well. UFP would not with those like kinds term but prefer them to having major population center destroy.

[359]

Often surrender terms what fit your interest best and Klingon best interest would likely be demand UFP pay tribulation to Klingon Empire and Klingon Empire gain control disputation areas. Likely be the must they ask for simple factor they protect Territory took UFP from Cardassion Union and Romulus Star Empire and maybe even Breen and might few other powers as well. UFP would not with those like kinds term but prefer them to having major population center destroy.

This is one possible assessment of the outcome of the war. I lean towards the out come in which the Klingons replace the Federation government and subjugate its people, it seems more fitting with the Klingons methods. But I think both situations have merit as we do not know enough about the nature of the war.

[Jasonb]

Often surrender terms what fit your interest best and Klingon best interest would likely be demand UFP pay tribulation to Klingon Empire and Klingon Empire gain control disputation areas. Likely be the must they ask for simple factor they protect Territory took UFP from Cardassion Union and Romulus Star Empire and maybe even Breen and might few other powers as well. UFP would not with those like kinds term but prefer them to having major population center destroy.

This is one possible assessment of the outcome of the war. I lean towards the out come in which the Klingons replace the Federation government and subjugate its people, it seems more fitting with the Klingons methods. But I think both situations have merit as we do not know enough about the nature of the war.

First Problem that simple the able of the Klingon Empire to do with what you suggested. Fact Weyoun suggestion the Dominion need massive number starships and troops even by standers order successful conqueror UFP. Why speck sound like lot even by Dominion fleet standers. So unless you suggestion that the Klngon Empire as over 30,000 starships in Yesterday Enterprise timeline. Which be about 15 times more then the Klingon Empire had normal timeline and be able spare the man power need and have some starship top that protect own Territory. First problem with you idea the UFP simple to vast for Klingon Empire to do suggestion.
Other problem is factor Klingon Empire also even if had the starships need and man power need to do you suggestion leave Klingon Empire defenseless would lose fruit labor Romulus and Cardassion and so on. The Klingon way not leave Klingon Empire near to defenseless to possible invade force. During the Dominion war the Klingon Empire did send ever starships hold the lines. Also in normal timeline the Klingon little over stretch try conquest the Cardassion Union.