Why does the Federation navy patrol existed at all?

[Jasonb]

I always had problem idea Federation navy for simple reason what point having if must navy does could easily handle by Starfleet. In the coast ground sense word Starfleet having it cover shuttlecaft easily design fly both above water and blow water and could reach place in less few minute at must and either beam people or us tractor beam pull them out the water.

Military sense again shuttlecaft could easily enter and leave the water and can fight water well. No reason believe that UFP shuttle fire weapon hit target ground while under water.
So why UFP need a navy when air force could particle do the job of a navy.

Only possible reason I can think is UFP navy portal more commandos like force like navy seals. Any other ideas.

[359]

The advantage of having a separate navy is not needing to tie up Starfleet resources in naval patrols on every planet. Also by having the navy as a separate entity some people may join the navy who wouldn't want to join Starfleet because they don't want to leave their planet, they don't like space travel, or many other reasons.

Military sense again shuttlecaft could easily enter and leave the water and can fight water well. No reason believe that UFP shuttle fire weapon hit target ground while under water.
So why UFP need a navy when air force could particle do the job of a navy.

The shuttles are designed to operate in a zero pressure to atmospheric environment. It is unlikely that their propulsion systems, for one, would work effectively underwater. In the episode VOY: "Thirty Days" Voyager's crew had to make extensive modifications to the Delta Flyer in order for it to be submersible, this included immersion shields.

And the Delta Flyer had an advantage over standard class-two shuttles, it was designed to function in a high pressure environment. While the deep sea is as harsh an environment as space is, they are dangerous for different reasons. Space is almost absolute nothing, a vacuum, with radiation, high thermal differences when facing a star or not, and many other factors. Deep sea is a high pressure environment and constantly cold. The construction techniques for building in each are vastly different.

That difference would require Starfleet to design their shuttles with that in mind if they were to do as you suggest. It would add undue complication and added points of failure and into the design, as well as the potential for increased damage in emergency situations.

Also, the shuttle's only offensive weaponry are phasers. As noted in VOY: "Thirty Days" phaser fire under water is a bad idea. The intense energy contained within a phaser blast would encounter resistance within the water, forcing the beam to vaporize significant volumes of water as it travels through the medium. This would decrease the speed at which the phaser beam would travel as well as its effective range due to using large portions of it's energy to displace numerous water molecules in its path.

The second part to why phasers are bad under water is the rather large volume of water you have now vaporized. Not only have you vaporized sufficient water to make room for the beam, but due to the thermal conductivity of water and the immense power of a phaser you have now vaporized a several meter radius of water around the beam further draining the beams energy. In a gaseous state water has a much higher kinetic energy than in a liquid state (not to mention the plasma you are likely to create.), this in turn causes it to prefer a much lower density. Because the mass is constrained to whatever amount you have vaporized it needs to increase its volume to reach a lower density. This sudden movement of water away from the beam causes an extremely powerful shock wave on par with detonating a thermonuclear device at a depth of say, 1000 meters.

Needless to say this shockwave is not going to by helpful to the local environment.

[Jasonb]

The advantage of having a separate navy is not needing to tie up Starfleet resources in naval patrols on every planet. Also by having the navy as a separate entity some people may join the navy who wouldn't want to join Starfleet because they don't want to leave their planet, they don't like space travel, or many other reasons.

Military sense again shuttlecaft could easily enter and leave the water and can fight water well. No reason believe that UFP shuttle fire weapon hit target ground while under water.
So why UFP need a navy when air force could particle do the job of a navy.

The shuttles are designed to operate in a zero pressure to atmospheric environment. It is unlikely that their propulsion systems, for one, would work effectively underwater. In the episode VOY: "Thirty Days" Voyager's crew had to make extensive modifications to the Delta Flyer in order for it to be submersible, this included immersion shields.

And the Delta Flyer had an advantage over standard class-two shuttles, it was designed to function in a high pressure environment. While the deep sea is as harsh an environment as space is, they are dangerous for different reasons. Space is almost absolute nothing, a vacuum, with radiation, high thermal differences when facing a star or not, and many other factors. Deep sea is a high pressure environment and constantly cold. The construction techniques for building in each are vastly different.

That difference would require Starfleet to design their shuttles with that in mind if they were to do as you suggest. It would add undue complication and added points of failure and into the design, as well as the potential for increased damage in emergency situations.

Also, the shuttle's only offensive weaponry are phasers. As noted in VOY: "Thirty Days" phaser fire under water is a bad idea. The intense energy contained within a phaser blast would encounter resistance within the water, forcing the beam to vaporize significant volumes of water as it travels through the medium. This would decrease the speed at which the phaser beam would travel as well as its effective range due to using large portions of it's energy to displace numerous water molecules in its path.

The second part to why phasers are bad under water is the rather large volume of water you have now vaporized. Not only have you vaporized sufficient water to make room for the beam, but due to the thermal conductivity of water and the immense power of a phaser you have now vaporized a several meter radius of water around the beam further draining the beams energy. In a gaseous state water has a much higher kinetic energy than in a liquid state (not to mention the plasma you are likely to create.), this in turn causes it to prefer a much lower density. Because the mass is constrained to whatever amount you have vaporized it needs to increase its volume to reach a lower density. This sudden movement of water away from the beam causes an extremely powerful shock wave on par with detonating a thermonuclear device at a depth of say, 1000 meters.

Needless to say this shockwave is not going to by helpful to the local environment.

Ok they need little different of shuttlecaft for the job not something Starfleet starships unlikely have. While yes something USS Voyager in practice design spy ship and limit fighting more anything else. USS Voyager not equipment much for anything but spying and fighting. But something Galaxy class starship likely shuttlecaft go underwater and Nova class starship likely have them as well. If mission explore straight new world and search new civilian you going need shuttlecaft can go underwater or at least have them around. Yes shuttlecaft might need different weapons I well give that no reason they could not us photon torpedoes. After all flying heart of star even blackdwalf mean withstand both presser and heat level much greater then anything in ocean in now universe.

[359]

While yes, they could equip star ships with an extra set of shuttles which would be water breathing (reducing their space shuttle compliment), that would be tying up to many star ship resources and star ships them selves. Necessitating that a star ship stay in orbit around a planet indefinitely when you could just build a land based facility to do the job much more easily would be silly and costly to Starfleet. Because of the nature of a navy being on a planet, there is no need to have a ship in orbit as this would require.

So after one takes star ships out of the equation, one begins to wonder why Starfleet would be dealing with this operation, so the Federation created a naval patrol whose job was to over see and deal with each planets navy. This frees up resources and personnel at Starfleet so they can do their job better.

So in the end, yes you could have a starship in orbit of every planet of the federation (or multiple star ships given the small number of shuttles they carry) supplying that planet its navy. But it is much more simple to create and maintain a land based operation for this purpose. And star ships may carry submersible shuttles for exploration, we just don't know.

[Jasonb]

While yes, they could equip star ships with an extra set of shuttles which would be water breathing (reducing their space shuttle compliment), that would be tying up to many star ship resources and star ships them selves. Necessitating that a star ship stay in orbit around a planet indefinitely when you could just build a land based facility to do the job much more easily would be silly and costly to Starfleet. Because of the nature of a navy being on a planet, there is no need to have a ship in orbit as this would require.

So after one takes star ships out of the equation, one begins to wonder why Starfleet would be dealing with this operation, so the Federation created a naval patrol whose job was to over see and deal with each planets navy. This frees up resources and personnel at Starfleet so they can do their job better.

So in the end, yes you could have a starship in orbit of every planet of the federation (or multiple star ships given the small number of shuttles they carry) supplying that planet its navy. But it is much more simple to create and maintain a land based operation for this purpose. And star ships may carry submersible shuttles for exploration, we just don't know.

I was more thinking starbase or even shuttle hangers on planet surface starships. Since good number colony have own shuttlebay or starbases. Even very smell would likely shuttlebay.

[359]

Shuttle hangers would make more sense, there is less complication involved than with star bases. And this would be why it is separate from Starfleet, it has nothing to do with space and can be separated into a different bureaucratic system making it more streamlined and efficient.

[Jasonb]

Problem that argument is that must colonies not major worlds. Over 11,000 colonies only at must 137 are major worlds and another 13 member worlds. Real smell colonies population few hundred people in biggest there 10 billion or more. Real smell once those had anywere few hundred up to million they need jack of trade the problem separation branch just issues number people which all likelihoods is something like 7,000. SInce must the colony seen more hundred to few thousand . Medium once those have something like 2 million to 100 million and big once 1 billion and UFP navy might make sense. Depend on if jack trade option does do the job well enough. From what I know building things build something do jack of all trades simple number build make up for the cost not include easily people just train to fix one kind shuttlecaft then group. Other problem Federation navy why it have subs at all. After all least must colony cover in water not at war.

[359]

I don't see how that's a problem with my argument. For a small colony they may not have a navy at all, and if they do why couldn't it be something like a small two to five person operation like many small outposts are? They only would use a small hanger with a couple of craft, a control center, and some living quarters. The setup would be similar to the Federation sup-space relay station in TNG: "Aquiel", but on a planet's surface and replace the communications equipment with sensors.

If something were to break they would either fix it or wait until a star ship/transport brought someone who could (or a replacement).

[Lucky]

I always had problem idea Federation navy for simple reason what point having if must navy does could easily handle by Starfleet. In the coast ground sense word Starfleet having it cover shuttlecaft easily design fly both above water and blow water and could reach place in less few minute at must and either beam people or us tractor beam pull them out the water.

Military sense again shuttlecaft could easily enter and leave the water and can fight water well. No reason believe that UFP shuttle fire weapon hit target ground while under water.
So why UFP need a navy when air force could particle do the job of a navy.

Only possible reason I can think is UFP navy portal more commandos like force like navy seals. Any other ideas.

What makes you think Star Fleet has a wet navy? Last time I checked, Star Fleet/The United Federation of Planets only rules the area between member planets, and tried to stay out of internal matters unless asked.

[359]

In VOY: "Thirty Days" Paris says he would have rather joined the Federation naval patrol. The question is to why they are a separate entity rather than a subdivision of Starfleet. As for the internal affairs, they are not to clear on how they deal with member worlds. Mainly we see colonies and protectorates.

Based on the definition of 'federation' the system would be similar to the planets acting as individual states/provinces which have a local government level but also answer to an overall federal government. Many countries use a form of that system right now (United States, Canada, Switzerland, etc...).

So it is reasonable for the Federation to have navies on the planets under the direct power of the federal government instead of the local (planetary) government, much in the way they build star bases in orbit or other Starfleet facilities either on land or in orbit.

[Lucky]

In VOY: "Thirty Days" Paris says he would have rather joined the Federation naval patrol. The question is to why they are a separate entity rather than a subdivision of Starfleet. As for the internal affairs, they are not to clear on how they deal with member worlds. Mainly we see colonies and protectorates.

Based on the definition of 'federation' the system would be similar to the planets acting as individual states/provinces which have a local government level but also answer to an overall federal government. Many countries use a form of that system right now (United States, Canada, Switzerland, etc...).

So it is reasonable for the Federation to have navies on the planets under the direct power of the federal government instead of the local (planetary) government, much in the way they build star bases in orbit or other Starfleet facilities either on land or in orbit.

Fair enough, but it seems to contradict what happened to Tasha Yar's planet.
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The logical answer is that wet navies have different needs and jobs that then space navies. It is the same reason most modern countries have navies, armies, and airforces even if they all use aircraft, ground vehicles, and water craft.

I may be wrong, but i seem to recall there being an unseen federation marinas or army being talked about as a separate branch of the Federation armed forces from Star Fleet?
_____
I would expect Star Fleet to handle being the air force.

[359]

it seems to contradict what happened to Tasha Yar's planet.

That is true, however Yar's planet was a colony, not a member world. But either way it's still odd.

[Lucky]

it seems to contradict what happened to Tasha Yar's planet.

That is true, however Yar's planet was a colony, not a member world. But either way it's still odd.

It makes things even odder. A colony should have less rights then a full members as the colony should be subordinate to its parent government. It almost sounds like they tried to gain independent from their parent planet, and then things went very wrong once they got it.

[359]

It gets even more odd if you look at the timeline of the planet's breakdown. 2330 government begins breakdown, 2350 planet breaks away from Federation. How did they let it get that bad as a colony?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Turkana_IV

[Lucky]

It gets even more odd if you look at the timeline of the planet's breakdown. 2330 government begins breakdown, 2350 planet breaks away from Federation. How did they let it get that bad as a colony?
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Turkana_IV

If things are not carefully planed out, revolutions can make things worse fast. It sounds like some people got it in their heads that they knew better then the UFP, and then things just got worse.