TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

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Mr. Oragahn
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TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:56 pm

With Lucky's permission, here's a part of a recent series of PMs dealing with the topic of TIE fighter panels and their uses.
I'm posting this because I'd like to know about your own respective opinions on this issue and, eventually, know if there are elements in the movies or in the EU we missed.
Enjoy. ;)

----------------------------------

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Lucky wrote:Why should we assume this when we are often told otherwise? The ICS themselves tell us that waste heat can't be transfered from the guns to the the neutrino radiators easily.
Didn't know that. Where is it written?
If the energy could be transfered the lasers would not have massive heat sinks built into them, and eject vaporized coolant.
Same here, where is it written? I never noticed that the TL guns had to ejected super hot fluids to cool down, although it's a far more efficient way to cool down than mere passive radiation, such as it goes with cooling panels.
Forced radiations like for massive amounts of neutrinos would however make much more sense
On top of that, the turbo in turbolaser comes from the fact that turbolasers have their own turbine generator, but then again T.I.E. and the Rebel Blockade Runner seemingly had solar panels according to the scripts as well.

I honestly think solar panels should show up more often in Sci-Fi.
Solar panels would only be good in low tech hard science fiction.
They really make no sense for TIEs.
Solar panels per se wouldn't acquire enough power for anything useful safe lighting up the cockpit and perhaps heating it up as well.
It's quite rubbish.
It would only be a good idea for ships used to operate much closer to stars.
TIEs are, on the contrary, certainly never going to operate in such zones. Deep space action is a large part of their theater of operation when transported there, otherwise they're just going to be deployed around worlds which would receive, on the average, as much light as Earth. That is, nothing useful here.
The sheer waste heat from the tiny reactors alone would provide much more heat.



Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Lucky wrote:
Lucky wrote: Why should we assume this when we are often told otherwise? The ICS themselves tell us that waste heat can't be transfered from the guns to the the neutrino radiators easily.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Didn't know that. Where is it written?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Same here, where is it written? I never noticed that the TL guns had to ejected super hot fluids to cool down, although it's a far more efficient way to cool down than mere passive radiation, such as it goes with cooling panels.
Forced radiations like for massive amounts of neutrinos would however make much more sense
http://www.phombo.com/technology/star-w ... l/popular/
Notice the bottom right corner that gives close ups of the DBY-827. Notice how the guns have their own built in cooling systems. Notice how those cooling systems are not neutrino radiators.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Solar panels would only be good in low tech hard science fiction.
I'd have to disagree. Solar panels make perfect sense in any Sci-Fi setting even if they are only for backup power. Solar should at least be able to handle life support and minimal lighting if you are in a habitable zone.

If you have a magical substance like Dilithium or Naquadah you can get insane outputs from solar panels if only by using them to power a secondary reaction.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They really make no sense for TIEs.
Solar panels per se wouldn't acquire enough power for anything useful safe lighting up the cockpit and perhaps heating it up as well.
It's quite rubbish.
It would only be a good idea for ships used to operate much closer to stars.
TIEs are, on the contrary, certainly never going to operate in such zones. Deep space action is a large part of their theater of operation when transported there, otherwise they're just going to be deployed around worlds which would receive, on the average, as much light as Earth. That is, nothing useful here.
The sheer waste heat from the tiny reactors alone would provide much more heat.
The only reason solar panels are a bad idea for TIE is that they give the fighter poor arrow dynamics, and give the fighter a huge profile.
Nope a thousand times.
Even a mere kit bashed combustion engine using crappy fuel would be far more powerful and efficient to kickstart any more complex reaction.
It just does not make sense unless you count on it as a secondary source of power, a backup, when you're big trouble.

The panels make sense to cool down stuff and even there radiation has severe limits, and unfortunately for Saxton the ICS, I think, did show the TIE wings to be rather not so advanced for him to cram one of his magical uber neutrino radiators.

Dynamics matter not in space, which is where TIE are primarily used.
Star Wars is a soft setting. The idea that they have to work like real life solar panels is flawed reasoning in my opinion. What is one more subtle peace of magitech?
I see no reason to believe otherwise, especially since the EU made it clear.
If they're really solar panels, meant to collect solar radiations, there's just that much intensity one can get in space, even if the whole light spectrum were to be scooped.
I was under the impression that the suits TIE pilot used had all the life support built into it?
Perhaps.



Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Nope a thousand times.
Even a mere kit bashed combustion engine using crappy fuel would be far more powerful and efficient to kickstart any more complex reaction.
You are assuming real world limitation in a fictional settings that are in many ways far more technologically advanced, and often have literal magic in the setting. If they say they do something you should take it as the truth.
Absolutely not. You are trying to appeal to magitech to make sense of what simply does not. Solar panels can only be, at best, a system of backup, because even if magitech was involved, there's a fixed intensity you can obtain in space. And let's not get started on the fact that the panels would have to face the local star perfectly to really work.
There's no way around that.
There are a bleep load of reason you wouldn't want to use a combustion engine in space, and solar panels require far less maintenance. The fewer moving parts the better.
There are actually none. A combustion engine is absurdly safe. Safer than any fission, fusion or antimatter engine as a matter of fact. Mere coal, if we really were to push it that far, still largely beats solar power. Fuels we currently use have a considerable energy density, but the power isn't as high as with fission, fusion or annihilation reactions.

Therefore, the best explanation for those large panels is not to collect power, which would be cumbersome and inefficient, but to radiate heat freely, constantly. Therefore they would not be solar panels but cooling panels.
But their sheer size would make them glaring targets in the night of space for any basic thermal imagery detection system.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It just does not make sense unless you count on it as a secondary source of power, a backup, when you're big trouble.
I was thinking of solar panels being a secondary power source in most cases, but given the size of TIE solar panels they are likely a primary source along with something like fusion. It makes perfect sense to have some solar panels on a civilian ship to help save money on fuel, and baring rare cases you aren't going to run out of star light on a planet in the habitable zone. You'd think solar power would be popular on a planet like Tatooine.
The problem is that it just doesn't jive with the concept of the TIE fighter. It's minimalistic, short ranged and clearly expandable.
These panels also seriously limit the field of vision. What they could have been used for, though, would be as complex sensor suites. It would make more sense, as the mothership they're tied to would recieve all that data. In a way, the expandable TIE fighters would double as probes which the Empire has like dime a dozen.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The panels make sense to cool down stuff and even there radiation has severe limits, and unfortunately for Saxton the ICS, I think, did show the TIE wings to be rather not so advanced for him to cram one of his magical uber neutrino radiators.
There isn't a reason the panels can't be multipurpose. solar panels can be extremely thin.
They pretty much HAVE to be multipurpose so we can attach some more interesting functions to them. But even there, there are limits.
However, one thing that could be useful is, as part of the idea that TIEs double as probes, the panels could emit specific types of EM radiation in certain directions (or all) for extremely intensive active scanner sweeps.
It would totally work with, for example, their role in mop up operations after a BDZ.

Another astute mind would probably have them used to enhance jamming and, therefore, increase their survival rate against infrared missiles for example.
EM radiation could be oriented by force fields.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Dynamics matter not in space, which is where TIE are primarily used.
But the Empire doesn't seem to have a craft designed for atmosphere, and the Republic used their space fighters in atmosphere.
They have torpedo boats in the EU. Sorts of militarized combat versions of the lambda shuttles, more fighter-like and cramped than majestic and diplomatic in their shape.
Plus there are the skiprays, used as part of local defense forces. Many worlds actually have their own defense forces.
The problem with TIE design is that even the edge of their "wings" (panels) is completely flat. That still produces drag, but if you notice, rebel ships have wings which aren't aerodynamic at all either.
However, the size of TIE fighter panels means that aside from sheer linear flight, any manoeuver in an environment of about 1 bar is going to put them at a great disadvantage.



Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Absolutely not. You are trying to appeal to magitech to make sense of what simply does not. Solar panels can only be, at best, a system of backup, because even if magitech was involved, there's a fixed intensity you can obtain in space. And let's not get started on the fact that the panels would have to face the local star perfectly to really work.
There's no way around that.
Last time I checked you had to assume magitech somewhere for Star wars anyway. In the case of T.I.E. we don't know the design of the panels used so we have no idea as to how they work, and an X-Wing's reactor can't be much larger then the fusion reactor Luke had after crashing on dagobah. Those shields the Gungans used are plasma windows, and that threater shield seems to be plasma as well.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DjuUb0xcKGM/T ... 600/14.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... matics.png

http://starwars.com/explore/encyclopedi ... ungantech/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_window
Sure, but none of these examples brush away the simple issue here. If these panels are solar panels, it means they're there to collect photons and perhaps some other particles like, say, protons, but I would not bet on that.
Meaning that no matter how advanced the tech is here, the limitating factor is the energy in the medium; space.

As cooling panels, they'd start to make more sense, but then again when you begin to enter the megawatt regions and above, the amounts of heat just become ridiculous if you count on normal (low-tech) radiations. That's why I said that for the energies involved, the Saxtonian model would be a better choice, on paper, in that it would be a forced radiation system: energy would be transported to the panels and forcedly transfered to particles shot into space from the panels; basically the neutrino radiator model, which isn't stupid per se if it weren't automatically used to legitimize the biggatons.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: There are actually none. A combustion engine is absurdly safe. Safer than any fission, fusion or antimatter engine as a matter of fact. Mere coal, if we really were to push it that far, still largely beats solar power. Fuels we currently use have a considerable energy density, but the power isn't as high as with fission, fusion or annihilation reactions.
I.C.E spit out large amounts of toxic substances that you don't want in an inclosed area.
Same goes with fission or fusion, or even annihilation. All these reactions are non-perfect by a huge degree.
And who gives? Most of the travel happens in space. In atmosphere, repulsorlift does most of the job, reactors only producing minimal amounts of power, almost being on idle in comparison to what they'd be pushed to in space.
There's just no way around it.
Solar power is ridiculously low.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Therefore, the best explanation for those large panels is not to collect power, which would be cumbersome and inefficient, but to radiate heat freely, constantly. Therefore they would not be solar panels but cooling panels.
But their sheer size would make them glaring targets in the night of space for any basic thermal imagery detection system.
There is no good explanation for why TIE have the huge panels.
There could be. Like I suggested, they'd be fantastic if they had been associated to sensor and jamming suites.
In another version of the universe, they could have even been associated to shield projectors: they could literally form a prism that would protect the cabin and the arms linking the panels to the main section, with a bit of shielding on the external side of the panels as well. For ships without hyperdrives, they'd actually be fantastic, able to put more hardware and power into network and combat systems.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: These panels also seriously limit the field of vision. What they could have been used for, though, would be as complex sensor suites. It would make more sense, as the mothership they're tied to would recieve all that data. In a way, the expandable TIE fighters would double as probes which the Empire has like dime a dozen.
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html wrote: Three TIE fighters, Vader flanked by two wingmen, dive in a tight formation. The sun reflects off their dominate solar fins as they loop toward the Death Star's surface.
As much as you don't like it, the large fins are called solar fins, and the Rebel Blockade Runner seen in the beginning of Episode 4 had one until it was blown off by a Star Destroyer.

It is rather pointless to try to rationalize the TIE design seen in episode 4. It doesn't even make sense in universe. Ultimately you end up with it looked cool to the designer being the reason for most stupid things in Star Wars.
I disagree. In universe, it can be given a very good use. Heck, even with megajoule level weapons and similar levels of power production, they'd be very interesting as cooling systems. But the main problem, as you point out, is that they're labelled "solar fins".
With a couple kilowatts per square meter if you collect about everything possible as electro magnetic radiation goes, you don't end far.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They pretty much HAVE to be multipurpose so we can attach some more interesting functions to them. But even there, there are limits.
However, one thing that could be useful is, as part of the idea that TIEs double as probes, the panels could emit specific types of EM radiation in certain directions (or all) for extremely intensive active scanner sweeps.
It would totally work with, for example, their role in mop up operations after a BDZ.

Another astute mind would probably have them used to enhance jamming and, therefore, increase their survival rate against infrared missiles for example.
EM radiation could be oriented by force fields.
They're solar fins. the more bells and whistles you add the less cheap and expendable a TIE becomes.
Let's not forget that nothing really indicated that they were that cheap and expandable in the movies, aside from the fact that they were piloted by mooks, by the bad guys.
If one wants an effective ECM system one need look no further then Star Wars shields. Just turning on Shields in star Wars should cut down your radar cross section. Cold Plasma stealth systems are kinda cool like that, and plasma can be used to enhance aerodynamics.
Those shields don't seem to block any EMR in the visible light range and may likely let other bandwidths pass through as well.
Since visible light can pass through, mere laser pointers in that band would solve the problem. All it would take to blind these sensors then would be to shine light up their lenses. :)
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They have torpedo boats in the EU. Sorts of militarized combat versions of the lambda shuttles, more fighter-like and cramped than majestic and diplomatic in their shape.
Plus there are the skiprays, used as part of local defense forces.
But those designs are conspicuously missing from the movies, and they could have easily been added into Return of the Jedi after all. I seem to recall the Sentinel landing craft was added to the movies after all.

We see the Empire use TIE in atmosphere at Bespin. That certainly seems to be the place to use something with better aerodynamics.
This case is just the exception if you'd ask me.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Many worlds actually have their own defense forces.
That is partly why the Republic, CIS, and Empire could have such small armies/navies. Most planets have a defense force of some sort to fend off pirates and such.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The problem with TIE design is that even the edge of their "wings" (panels) is completely flat. That still produces drag, but if you notice, rebel ships have wings which aren't aerodynamic at all either.
However, the size of TIE fighter panels means that aside from sheer linear flight, any manoeuver in an environment of about 1 bar is going to put them at a great disadvantage.
TIE suck, it is something repeatedly stated in the EU, and shown in the movies. Even the Empire was willing to admit the TIE was a bad design, and had been working on a replacement before episode 4 took place as Vader's personal TIE implies.

The TIE/IN and TIE/D Defender are vast improvements though there really should only be one replacement.
But cannot suck for terrible terrible reasons. We have to assume a minimum level of intelligence behind the design of the ship. Because otherwise, we're almsot pretending the equivalent of car designers making square wheels are realizing that they're not fit for driving.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:23 am

For whatever it's worth, some of the original TIE concepts identify the panels as solar arrays.
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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Lucky » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:56 pm

The Script is simply the highest ranking source for T.I.E. using solar panels.
http://web.archive.org/web/20110903234358/http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/tiefighter/index.html wrote: The hexagonal solar panels supply power to a unique propulsion system. Microparticle accelerators propel Ionized gasses at a substantial fraction of lightspeed. These gasses are then expelled from rear vents to generate thrust. The ion streams can be directed along amost any vector, allowing for the TIE's incredible velocity and maneuverability. The twin ion engines have few moving parts and require comparably less maintenance to the starfighters of the Alliance.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... 1_egvv.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... _schem.jpg

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... _schem.jpg

If you think solar panels are stupid, keep in mind that the Empire thought AT-ST were a good idea.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by 2046 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:39 pm

Where does the script say that?

Actually, if all it says is "solar fin", then it is definitely a heat dissipation device. The solar fins of the Tantive IV, when destroyed, caused the crew to almost immediately shut down the reactor for fear of overheating.

Unless a canon source says solar power generation, then that's just an EU invention.

If not, then I'm perfectly content with those serving as the stability foils (s-foils) like for every other starfighter which in this case could be said to double as heat radiating panels. (Perhaps all those starfighters are using "thermal stability foils" rather than maneuvering stability.)

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Lucky » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:19 am

2046 wrote:Where does the script say that?

Actually, if all it says is "solar fin", then it is definitely a heat dissipation device. The solar fins of the Tantive IV, when destroyed, caused the crew to almost immediately shut down the reactor for fear of overheating.

Unless a canon source says solar power generation, then that's just an EU invention.

If not, then I'm perfectly content with those serving as the stability foils (s-foils) like for every other starfighter which in this case could be said to double as heat radiating panels. (Perhaps all those starfighters are using "thermal stability foils" rather than maneuvering stability.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=367FSjWvNB4
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html wrote: The awesome yellow planet of Tatooine emerges from a total eclipse, her two moons glowing against the darkness. A tiny silver spacecraft, a Rebel Blockade Runner firing lasers from the back of the ship, races through space. It is pursed by a giant Imperial Stardestroyer. Hundreds of deadly laserbolts streak from the Imperial Stardestroyer, causing the main solar fin of the Rebel craft to disintegrate.

INT. REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER - MAIN PASSAGEWAY
An explosion rocks the ship as two robots, Artoo-Detoo (R2-D2) and See-Threepio (C-3PO) struggle to make their way through the shaking, bouncing passageway. Both robots are old and battered. Artoo is a short, claw-armed tripod. His face is a mass of computer lights surrounding a radar eye. Threepio, on the other hand, is a tall, slender robot of human proportions. He has a gleaming bronze-like metallic surface of an Art Deco design. Another blast shakes them as they struggle along their way.

THREEPIO: Did you hear that? They've shut down the main reactor. We'll be destroyed for sure. This is madness!
"They" in this case seems to be the Imperial Stardestroyer's crew/gunners. C3-P0 is speaking in response to an explosion caused by the ship he is on being hit with laserbolts.

Why call them solar anything if the fins are not related to stars? This isn't dialog where they could be talking about a named brand or using slang. This is a description of the scene the writer intended.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by 2046 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:57 am

Both the novelization and the radio drama point to the crew shutting down the reactor. This is far more likely than a turbolaser bolt doing it, since (a) it hits the outside of the ship and (b) Star Wars reactors take even less kindly to direct weapon impacts than their Trek counterparts.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Picard » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:00 pm

2046 wrote:Where does the script say that?

Actually, if all it says is "solar fin", then it is definitely a heat dissipation device. The solar fins of the Tantive IV, when destroyed, caused the crew to almost immediately shut down the reactor for fear of overheating.

Unless a canon source says solar power generation, then that's just an EU invention.

If not, then I'm perfectly content with those serving as the stability foils (s-foils) like for every other starfighter which in this case could be said to double as heat radiating panels. (Perhaps all those starfighters are using "thermal stability foils" rather than maneuvering stability.)
There is one more thing that supports panels being cooling devices: all fighters in series have either large wings (X, B) or large flat surfaces (Y, A). TIE has neither.

Now, during attack on Death Star, Red Leader does say "Lock S-foils in attack position", but there is no atmosphere in space; however, X-wing's engines are mounted on wings themselves, so separating wings does improve maneuverability.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by 2046 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:38 pm

The TIE's upright hexagons *are* large flat surfaces so far as I can tell.

As for S-foils relating to engine placement, the X-Wing is the exception and not the rule. The Republic Fighter seen in RotS (known as the ARC-170) has S-foils unrelated to the engines, as do the Jedi fighters.

There is no air in space, yes, but whether it is a question of redistribution of mass or thrust or thrusters or guns or whatever, the S-foils are canonically stability foils. If it doesn't refer to maneuvering then we could ponder it in the context of thermal stability or what-have-you, but that's all we know. Some very good fighters and bombers just don't have them at all, which may also be used as a clue at some point.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:03 pm

Indeed, what is so special about S-foils or anything that the very reliable Y-wing and A wings don't need to make use of them? Or they have S-foils, but they are small and do not require deployment. Also in the Republic-era, there are no S-foils on the Delta 7 Jedi starfighter.
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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Lucky » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:33 am

2046 wrote: Both the novelization and the radio drama point to the crew shutting down the reactor. This is far more likely than a turbolaser bolt doing it, since (a) it hits the outside of the ship and (b) Star Wars reactors take even less kindly to direct weapon impacts than their Trek counterparts.
I do not have access to those sources, and would like to see the quotes. Could you please provide the quotes?
_-_-_-_-_-_
Doesn't the reactor(s) on the ship at the beginning of "Nomad Droids" get disabled without blowing up the ship? It seems like there are a lot of hit the right place, and disable the ship moments in Star Wars: The Clone Wars though it seems to often enough

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Lucky » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:34 am

Picard wrote: There is one more thing that supports panels being cooling devices: all fighters in series have either large wings (X, B) or large flat surfaces (Y, A). TIE has neither.
Black and dark grey are bad colors unless you want to absorb energy. You want your radiators to be silver or white.
_-_-_-_-_-_
A large number of craft ranging from fighters to capital ships don't have large flat surfaces. Just look at the A-Wing, Y-Wing, and Delta-6/7


Picard wrote: Now, during attack on Death Star, Red Leader does say "Lock S-foils in attack position", but there is no atmosphere in space; however, X-wing's engines are mounted on wings themselves, so separating wings does improve maneuverability.
There is a chance the Death Star had an atmosphere around it. It used thermal exhaust ports to help cool the reactor remember. There had to be something being circulated over the reactor to cool it down or else the exhaust ports were doing nothing at all.
_-_-_-_-_-_
As you said, separating the wings on an X-wing would put the engines in a configuration that would make maneuvering easier, but there also seems to be some advantage to putting the guns on the ends of the wings.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:50 am

Lucky wrote:
Picard wrote: There is one more thing that supports panels being cooling devices: all fighters in series have either large wings (X, B) or large flat surfaces (Y, A). TIE has neither.
Black and dark grey are bad colors unless you want to absorb energy. You want your radiators to be silver or white.
No, you definitely want them as black as possible (and built not to contain the energy) for maximum IR emission.
Of course that just makes you shine in the dark on any decent IR scope, but that's not a problem for TIEs, really, they're not meant to be mad stealthy. Pure black is largely good if you detect things with visible light, like eye globes do. But TIEs hardly are all that black either. They had plenty of sections that simply reflect light like normal and makes them easily seen even with bare sight.

Of course the idea that TIEs would want to get rid of all that super duper energy instead of storing it in capacitors doesn't speak well of efficiency, at least in the context of some SW fans believing that SW tech is extremely advanced - like those who champion Saxton's ideas.
I doubt even Saxton himself would argue that TIE panels house neutrino radiators after all.
Picard wrote: Now, during attack on Death Star, Red Leader does say "Lock S-foils in attack position", but there is no atmosphere in space; however, X-wing's engines are mounted on wings themselves, so separating wings does improve maneuverability.
There is a chance the Death Star had an atmosphere around it. It used thermal exhaust ports to help cool the reactor remember. There had to be something being circulated over the reactor to cool it down or else the exhaust ports were doing nothing at all.
The battle station's gravity would be sufficient to maintain any noticeable atmosphere. We're nowhere even near the Moon's gravity field here. Not even close to Ceres'.

Unless of course you argue that the ship carries saxtonian hypermatter. :P

In reality, there are more chances of an atmosphere being retained because of some odd interaction between possible ionized emission from the core chamber and the magnetic field itself, perhaps acting like some greenhouse-canopy.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Lucky » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:07 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: No, you definitely want them as black as possible (and built not to contain the energy) for maximum IR emission.
Of course that just makes you shine in the dark on any decent IR scope, but that's not a problem for TIEs, really, they're not meant to be mad stealthy. Pure black is largely good if you detect things with visible light, like eye globes do. But TIEs hardly are all that black either. They had plenty of sections that simply reflect light like normal and makes them easily seen even with bare sight.
If it is radiating energy then it isn't black.

Last time I checked you wanted radiators to be good conductors, and that means metals like gold, silver, etcetera

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Of course the idea that TIEs would want to get rid of all that super duper energy instead of storing it in capacitors doesn't speak well of efficiency, at least in the context of some SW fans believing that SW tech is extremely advanced - like those who champion Saxton's ideas.
I doubt even Saxton himself would argue that TIE panels house neutrino radiators after all.
Yup

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The battle station's gravity would be sufficient to maintain any noticeable atmosphere. We're nowhere even near the Moon's gravity field here. Not even close to Ceres'.

Unless of course you argue that the ship carries saxtonian hypermatter. :P

In reality, there are more chances of an atmosphere being retained because of some odd interaction between possible ionized emission from the core chamber and the magnetic field itself, perhaps acting like some greenhouse-canopy.
We see a Storm Trooper standing in the trench as the Millennium Falcon is brought into the hanger on the Death Star. Artificial gravity in the trench should be able to hold atmosphere in the trench, and the magnetic field the X-wings pass through would help stop it from being blown away by solar wind type things.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:16 pm

Lucky wrote:If it is radiating energy then it isn't black.
?
Last time I checked you wanted radiators to be good conductors, and that means metals like gold, silver, etcetera
To spread the energy flux if you need to. In the absolute, a supraconductor would lose very little energy at all. Good for transfer, but not for radiation. There's a time to force leaks.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The battle station's gravity would [not] be sufficient to maintain any noticeable atmosphere. We're nowhere even near the Moon's gravity field here. Not even close to Ceres'.

Unless of course you argue that the ship carries saxtonian hypermatter. :P

In reality, there are more chances of an atmosphere being retained because of some odd interaction between possible ionized emission from the core chamber and the magnetic field itself, perhaps acting like some greenhouse-canopy.
We see a Storm Trooper standing in the trench as the Millennium Falcon is brought into the hanger on the Death Star. Artificial gravity in the trench should be able to hold atmosphere in the trench, and the magnetic field the X-wings pass through would help stop it from being blown away by solar wind type things.
We don't really know where exactly the trooper was standing. He could just be walking behind the energy wall of some perpendicular bay or whatever.
However, if we want to be pedantic, we'd say that we saw the flamed material ejected during crashes arcing back down towards the battle station's surface.
As I wouldn't imagine the Empire bothering with casting an a.g. outside the structure, it could only be some gravity waste/leak from the a.g. field inside, where the stormtroopers stand.
I'd have expected artificial gravity management to be much more delicate, especially when you see the way it's handled inside the Millennium Falcon or Slave I for example.

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Re: TIE fighters' panels - what are they?

Post by Picard » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:25 pm

2046 wrote:The TIE's upright hexagons *are* large flat surfaces so far as I can tell.
I meant "large flat surfaces that are part of basic airframe". TIEs surfaces are separate from its central part.
As for S-foils relating to engine placement, the X-Wing is the exception and not the rule. The Republic Fighter seen in RotS (known as the ARC-170) has S-foils unrelated to the engines, as do the Jedi fighters.
I know, but my comment was X-wing specific. Using both instances, it does seem that S foils are radiatiors, as they are separated right before battle and specifically into "attack position". Then again, RotS battle was within atmosphere, so Clone fighters may have benefited from maneuverability - Jedi fighter's panels are never referred to as S-foils in canon, as far as my memory serves me.
There is no air in space, yes, but whether it is a question of redistribution of mass or thrust or thrusters or guns or whatever, the S-foils are canonically stability foils. If it doesn't refer to maneuvering then we could ponder it in the context of thermal stability or what-have-you, but that's all we know. Some very good fighters and bombers just don't have them at all, which may also be used as a clue at some point.
Well, both Clone fighters and X-wings have big bad guns, as do B-wings and Vader-model TIEs. A-wings, Y-wings and AotC Jedi fighters have smaller guns, from what I remember.

https://www.google.hr/search?q=thermal+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

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