Troop tactics

[User15063]

Even though people say that phasers are better then blasters, (that can be debated) the Stormtroopers are well orginized, have air support and heavy armor/artillerty, amongst other things.

I have never see any ST vehicles for ground support, all they have for air support is the main ship, (e.g. Enterprise) and the redshirts lack any armor or heavy weapons.

And to clear up an issue, the reason the Stormtroopers kept on missing the rebels in ANH, is because Grand Moff Tarkin ordered them not to kill them, but to herd back to their ship, so they could track the rebels back to their base

[Praeothmin]

Hello Galen, welcome to SFJ!

Even though people say that phasers are better then blasters, (that can be debated) the Stormtroopers are well orginized, have air support and heavy armor/artillerty, amongst other things.

Well, while they do have ground support, but while we've never seen them, so do the Cardassians and Klingons...
DS9 mentioned the Cardassian Mechanized Infantry, and Klingons mentioned their troop transports as well...

redshirts lack any armor or heavy weapons.

They do have protective pajamas as seen in DS9, but you are correct it doesn't look like true armor...
However, ST: INS showed us heavy weapons (Isomagnetic Disintegrator), and DS9 showed us mines as well, so they do have heavy infantry weapons...

And to clear up an issue, the reason the Stormtroopers kept on missing the rebels in ANH, is because Grand Moff Tarkin ordered them not to kill them, but to herd back to their ship, so they could track the rebels back to their base

Actually, that would be why they kept missing Luke and Co, but the rebels aboard the Tantive four were killed, and yet the Stormtroopers were horribly bad shots during the fight aboard the Tantive IV...
They were also horrible on Hoth, and on Endor against the Ewoks...

[Mith]

Even though people say that phasers are better then blasters, (that can be debated)

How can it be debated? Can a blaster pistol blasted out at thick wall of rock with a single shot? Can a blaster pistol disintegrate people with one shot?

the Stormtroopers are well orginized, have air support and heavy armor/artillerty, amongst other things.

Why would you assume that Starfleet doesn't? We know from TOS's Arena episode, that a small colony military outpost, which had been bombed to hell, still had a small mortar launcher in it that was worth several gigajoules in firepower. They were not only able to fire this thing at something a kilometer or so away--they determined that it was a bit close for that type of weapon. And of course, we see from current TNG that base camps like the one that Soran set up around his little make-ship camp to launch a solar probe into a nearby star had a shield that could laugh off a MOAB. And this is of course, assuming that you can only deflect x energy with x joule per shield.

This isn't taking into account that their technology also allows for them to build cruiser missiles that could literally strike you from anywhere on the planet and probably even on a nearby moon.

I have never see any ST vehicles for ground support, all they have for air support is the main ship, (e.g. Enterprise)

Except you know, shuttles, runabouts, and fighters that we see in the show. You know, those standard shuttles that are capable of blowing apart a semi with a single shot? The ones that are heavily shielded, complete with an advanced sensor array, and can move at significant fractions of c?

And how is a Starship poor back-up? Its weapons are capable of being set to stun and basically taking out an entire base without destroying the infrastructure. It could even fire a low-yield torpedo from any part in orbit.

and the redshirts lack any armor or heavy weapons.

We see flake jackets in Deep Space Nine. More to the point, heavy armor won't do you any good in ST. Why? Because a phaser, even if you somehow manage to reduce it to 1/10th of its effective killing power on maximum level...you're going to still end up being a smear on the wall when they fire it at you.

And to clear up an issue, the reason the Stormtroopers kept on missing the rebels in ANH, is because Grand Moff Tarkin ordered them not to kill them, but to herd back to their ship, so they could track the rebels back to their base

You see, if this was Star Trek, the captain of the station would have just isolated them with force fields and force them to surrender. Either by threatening to just cut off their air, or gassing them, or beaming them into a jail cell. Also, their guns have stun settings, which we saw in the opening act. Why wouldn't they just switch their guns to stun and gun a simple smuggler down?

The fact is, Starfleet would destroy the Empire in a ground warfare. That AT-AT? Those walkers? Those men moving forward in a spread out battle line? They'll be long dead before they even get within sight of the heavily shielded military base that could withstand orbital bombardment from a starship. Their fighters will be picked by ships with far superior design capabilities, including range.

[mojo]

noone has mentioned the badass space dune buggy and purple rocket launcher in insurrection. that was the one, right? with the dune buggy and the rocket launcher? and picard standing by morals and ideals that he stood firmly against in the series? jesus, it's like whatshisfuck just spits out whatever is put in front of him and never remembers anything. if you had filmed the scene with wesley crusher where you talk about how you're going to fuck him up if he ever goes specifically against orders again, would you maybe remember that when you acted in a movie in which you did literally the exact same thing wesley did? because, see, it seems like i might remember that.
/derail

[Mith]

noone has mentioned the badass space dune buggy and purple rocket launcher in insurrection. that was the one, right? with the dune buggy and the rocket launcher?

The buggy was in Nemesis and the "rocket launcher" was in Insurrection.

and picard standing by morals and ideals that he stood firmly against in the series? jesus, it's like whatshisfuck just spits out whatever is put in front of him and never remembers anything. if you had filmed the scene with wesley crusher where you talk about how you're going to fuck him up if he ever goes specifically against orders again, would you maybe remember that when you acted in a movie in which you did literally the exact same thing wesley did? because, see, it seems like i might remember that.
/derail

Actually, it is different.

First off, the colonists that they were relocating were warned that before they moved there, that the planet was being contested by another power. Second, these colonists are Federation members, who must submit to Federation laws, and they were told that the planet that they might have to give up will be given up. In regards to the Baku, the planet belonged to them, it just happened to be within Federation space.

Admiral Duff (I think that was his name) gave Captain Picard an illegal order. Because he and the Federation Council had played hush hush and were trying to spin a quick profit at the expense of some settlers who long predated their claim to the planet. It was rather telling when the Federation reversed its orders when it was revealed to the public. In Wesley's case, he disobeyed a legal order because he didn't like it. Picard didn't disobey an illegal order because he disliked it; he disobeyed it because it was illegal and he found it repugnant.

In case you hadn't noticed, but Picard never wanted to move the settlers from the colony world in TNG. He was given a legal order by his superior and he obeyed that order.

[mojo]

you know what? i'm not even going to pretend to know more than you do. i'll just take your word for it. but what about the fact that they found yet another means to live forever and just walked away from it? do they just like to die?

[Mith]

you know what? i'm not even going to pretend to know more than you do. i'll just take your word for it. but what about the fact that they found yet another means to live forever and just walked away from it? do they just like to die?

The problem is, the Collector device wouldn't have allowed them to live forever. It would substantially increase their lifespans, but they would all still die of old age. The way it worked to make you effectively immortal, was that anyone who lived on the planet past the age of puberty--and past puberty, I mean in their thirties and forties, would retain their youth.

The problem with Insurrection is that it mixes too many old plot points. First off, the whole "land of immortals" has already been done, at least once, in Deep Space Nine. On that world, the place was infected with a nanovirus that basically restored you to life, no matter what the damage. The downside was that it made you entirely reliant upon that system for support, so if you die, even once, you can never leave. This is what happened to the old Kai of the Bajoran religion, which left a power vacuum that Winn was later able to fill.

You're correct also in regards to the similarities with the Insurrection plot and the episode with Wesley. All things considered, it was the same story, but each one served a different purpose. In TNG, it served as a conflict for Picard and Wesley, which highlighted the difference between morality and legality, as well as the chain of command. Picard was following his legal orders, even if he didn't want to obey them. Wesley however, took his moral stance over his orders and hence why Picard had to reprimand him.

In Insurrection, the issue with the Baku was simply there as cheap drama. Cheapest in the most stupid way possible. They not only had rejected all advanced technology because all technology is evil and destroys nature, as you can see with the Federation who...who can transform entire echosystems thanks to the Genesis device and later technological breakthroughs...and of course, they can't defend themselves from being abducted from their new world because using weapons makes you evil...except Starfleet, which has weapons that can safely stun people...and they can't leave their own home planet because they all want to live forever...and the reason the Sona are out for them is just as much revenge as it is desperation to live longer...which means that the previous generation never allowed their coming generation to take the helm of their society...and really, it's all really bad.

The entire point of the movie was designed to make sure that you couldn't put Picard in the wrong. Moving people for the benefits of countless billions of people? Yeah, but it isn't ours to take. Ordered to leave? Yeah, but the order is illegal, so we don't have to make Picard look like a hypocrite. Bad guys have dirty past that even Starfleet didn't know about? Well, that's too much for the shady admiral, who wants to then pull the plug.

Insurrection was bad, but it was due to a bad plot concept and the fact that they twisted everything to let out heroes stay in the clear.

[mojo]

just a couple of things -
1. once again, not going to argue any particular point, i am sure your knowledge exceeds my own. in fact, i'll be honest - i stole the initial argument from repeated viewings of plinkett's review of insurrection (and apparently the other one with the purple rocket launcher). in fact, i enjoyed ALL the star trek tng movies tremendously and will watch any of them if they happen to be on tv.
2. i'm pretty sure i've asked this about 25,000 times without getting a straight answer. please forgive the derail. i remember there was an episode in which worf was hurt, i think his back was hurt or something, it's been a long time, but they used the transporter to fix it by simply spitting him out into an earlier form that the computer still had on file.. i think? anyway, since i saw that episode i've always wondered why they don't just use transporters to spit themselves into 21 year old bodies every few years? as i understand it, the transporter basically destroys the original body and then creates another body using whatever matter's at hand wherever they're going, and that the reason this doesn't just constantly kill the original and simply make a copy is that the *soul* somehow travels from the original to the new version. obviously, simplified massively, but that's the gist, right? so why not just do it whenever you have to transport anywhere? away team goes to a planet, they all land there 21 again. what's the problem?
speaking of transporters, if the person's soul travels to the new body, what the hell was animating the second riker on that episode with the two rikers? and what would happen if you used the transporter to spit out a copy of a person that was dead, like say if they decided it was stupid to let yar drown in a mud puddle and just spit out a new one based on the last transport she made?
uh, sorry, that was a lot.

[Lucky]

I hope this does not feel like you're being dog piled.

Even though people say that phasers are better then blasters, (that can be debated)

KIRA: This is a standard issue, Cardassian phase-disruptor rifle. It has a four point seven megajoule power capacity, three millisecond recharge two beam settings. 


ZIYAL: How do you know so much about Cardassian weapons? 


KIRA: We captured a lot of them during the occupation. It's a good weapon, solid, simple. You can drag it through the mud and it'll still fire. Now this. (Federation phaser rifle.) This is an entirely different animal. Federation standard issue. It's a little less powerful, but it's got a more options. Sixteen beam settings. Fully autonomous recharge, multiple target acquisition, gyro stabilised, the works. It's a little more complicated, so it's not as good a field weapon. Too many things can go wrong with it.

REED: Increase power another five megajoules. Fire. Keep it going. Increase to seven megajoules. Try eight. Nine. The density's holding. Bring it up to ten. (it finally blasts a hole in the target) That should do it. We'll reach that transport in less than an hour. Let's modify as many of these as we can.

SEVEN [OC]: I'm at the weapons range. Kovin had taken us there to evaluate various hand held firearms he wished to offer in trade. He attempted to impress us with a demonstration of the weapons destructive capabilities. My role was to provide a more objective analysis. 


KOVIN: Terrawatt powered particle beam rifle, four microsecond recharge cycle, ten kilometre range. 


PARIS: Definitely not standard Starfleet issue. What do you think? 


SEVEN: Seventy two percent fragmentation, twenty eight percent vaporization. Crude, but efficient. 


PARIS: It's not as accurate as our compression rifles, but it's a lot easier to handle. I wouldn't mind carrying one of these the next time we run into the Hirogen. 


SEVEN: Targeting mechanism could be augmented with a thermal guidance sensor. That would improve accuracy by twenty four percent.

Even if a blaster and phaser had an equal firepower the phaser still has more uses beyond just that of a weapon, and that makes the phaser a better tool.

Keep in mind that phasers come in a huge variety of shapes and sizes.

the Stormtroopers are well orginized, have air support and heavy armor/artillerty, amongst other things.

I think you are confusing Clone Troopers with Storm Troopers. They are very different creatures, and have very different vehicles.
First Battle of Geonosis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmR1ee223zQ

Second Battle of Geonosis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMoWboKoj5c

Star Trek: Voyager: Future's End
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 39&page=16

Even the clone Troopers had to rely mostly on Y-Wing bombers and to a lessser extent LAAT for air support. This means the situation is at best the same as the United Federation of Planets who's shuttles don't really lose much in the way of performance in atmosphere as seen in Voyager: Future's End. A Federation shuttle can also easily serve as an APC and IFV. Shields, armor, and antigravity make Federation shuttles a very versatile platform.

LEYTON: Mister President, we can use the Lakota's transporters and communications system to mobilise every Starfleet officer on Earth in less than twelve hours. We've been preparing for something like this for a long time. We have stockpiles of phaser rifles, personal forcefields, photon grenades, enough to equip an entire army. I can start getting men on the streets immediately.

KIRK: We'll see how ingenious they are. Here, give me a hand with this grenade launcher. Lang!

_-_-_-_-_-_

KELOWITZ: If I were them, I'd go to the high ground on the right. I make it twelve hundred yards, azimuth eighty seven. It's pretty close for one of these little jewels, Captain. 
KIRK: It'll be a lot closer to them. Stand clear.

KIRBY: Don't worry about it. Same thing happened to me my first day. You know what I heard? That ship Starfleet sent, the Farragut? The Klingons intercepted it. 


JAKE: Starfleet'll send another one, won't they? 


KIRBY: It won't be here for days, and in the meantime we're looking at a ground war which is just what the Klingons want. According to a lieutenant I talked to, they've got so many transport scramblers online that we can't beam troops anywhere. 


JAKE: What about using hoppers? 


KIRBY: He says the Klingons have been shooting them out of the sky left and right. Unless something changes, he figures the Klingons'll take the settlement the day after tomorrow. Did you see all the bat'leth wounds today? Klingons get mad, they forget about their disruptors, go hand to hand. If you ask me, they're looking to get even for what happened on Ganalda Four.

Beyond this we do not know what a Hopper is.

This class of shuttle is clearly meant to carry cargo from orbit to ground and the reverse. It carried what amounts to be a light all-terrain buggy.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Argo_(shuttlecraft)

TORRES: We might try something like a targ scoop.


JANEWAY [OC]: Can you enlighten us, Lieutenant?


TORRES: Klingons put them on the front of ground assault vehicles. They emit a high frequency tone that disperses targ herds in their path. I can modify the

I have never see any ST vehicles for ground support, all they have for air support is the main ship, (e.g. Enterprise)

They can and have used armed shuttles on screen, but the key word here is SEEN. We in fact have never SEEN a major ground battle in Star Trek. Do you really expect what amounts to be sailor or pilots to have the same equipment as the army?

I think we should have seen heavier armor more often, but it exists.

From what i've read, it would seem the writers for Deep Space Nine wanted to show a major ground battle or two, but were told they didn't have the budget for it, and as a result we got episodes like Nor The Battle Strong and

and the redshirts lack any armor or heavy weapons.

The photon grenade launcher Kirk used in Arena, and a standard phaser rifle are more powerful then most vehicle mounted weapons in Star wars. These weapons have insanely high yields for their size. A gigawatt particle beam rifle, and a grenade little bigger then your fist that has a yield measured in tons constitute light weapons in Star trek.

The standard Star Fleet uniform is armor, and in Nor The Battle Strong we see heavier armor made from similar material. The Klingons, Cardassians, and Borg wear armor as well, but make it more obvious.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Ja ... _Burke.jpg

JANEWAY: I've got the basic operation down, but I can't quite figure out how to lock on to a target. Can you access anything that might function like our targeting scanners? 


TUVOK: There are biosensors contained within the monitoring programs of each habitat. Perhaps 


JANEWAY: I'm detecting human life forms in one of the environments. The Argala habitat. 


JANEWAY: Tom and B'Elanna. 


TUVOK: Possibly. They may have taken refuge there to hide from the Nyrians. 


JANEWAY: Doesn't look very inviting, does it. 


TUVOK: The temperature is minus twenty degrees Celsius. 


JANEWAY: They can't last long in that. We've got to get them out.

-20C is equal to -4F

And to clear up an issue, the reason the Stormtroopers kept on missing the rebels in ANH, is because Grand Moff Tarkin ordered them not to kill them, but to herd back to their ship, so they could track the rebels back to their base

Obi Won makes a point to state Storm Troopers can't hit the broad side of a sand crawler in Episode 4, and then you have Episode 5 and 6b continuing the horrible aim. Even the Clone Troopers have only slightly better aim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h8ZOK5u3i8

Even if we assume the Storm Troopers had been ordered to let them go, the storm trooper still needed to give a convincing show to three people who know what they are suppose to be able to do. This means the bad showing wasn't far from the standard.

[Lucky]

2. i'm pretty sure i've asked this about 25,000 times without getting a straight answer. please forgive the derail. i remember there was an episode in which worf was hurt, i think his back was hurt or something, it's been a long time, but they used the transporter to fix it by simply spitting him out into an earlier form that the computer still had on file.. i think? anyway, since i saw that episode i've always wondered why they don't just use transporters to spit themselves into 21 year old bodies every few years? as i understand it, the transporter basically destroys the original body and then creates another body using whatever matter's at hand wherever they're going, and that the reason this doesn't just constantly kill the original and simply make a copy is that the *soul* somehow travels from the original to the new version. obviously, simplified massively, but that's the gist, right? so why not just do it whenever you have to transport anywhere? away team goes to a planet, they all land there 21 again. what's the problem?
speaking of transporters, if the person's soul travels to the new body, what the hell was animating the second riker on that episode with the two rikers? and what would happen if you used the transporter to spit out a copy of a person that was dead, like say if they decided it was stupid to let yar drown in a mud puddle and just spit out a new one based on the last transport she made?
uh, sorry, that was a lot.

1) http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ethics_(episode)
The doctors not being able to fix Worf's back is kind of forced when you consider about Laforge's eyes.

2) The effects of the magic radiation only last a short time if you are not constantly bathed in it.

2) Transporters are strange. The person is shown to be conscious while in transport, and can interact with things. Remember there are pure energy life forms in star trek that stared out as corporeal creatures.

The federation does seem to have scientifically quantified the soul and "life energy". I made a thread that everyone ignored about this.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6391