Set piece battle: StarFleet VS CIS

[sonofccn]

Taking place in a "generic" and otherwise uninteresting star system this quick and dirty matchup will pit brawn and skill of the respective sides in a fight to the death. On the side of the United Federation of Planet, fresh from the emotionally taunt Cardassian War, we have the determined Captain Benjamin Maxwell, seasoned Starfleet officer, who will lead the Starfleet's taskforce consisting of:

(1) Galaxy Class starship
(2) Nebula class starships
(4) Miranda class starships {TNG era refit}

Glowering from the opposing corner, serving as senior military officer of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, is the brutal General Grievous, a harden veteran and warrior, whom will command the CIS armada consisting of:

(1) Providence class carrier/destroyer {The Invisible Hand}
(2) Recusant class light destroyers
(4) Munificent-class frigates

Which Commander will take the gold? Who will breath harsh vacuum? You decide!

[Praeothmin]

Tough to say...
On the one hand, I think the GCS and two Nebs will take care of the Invisible Hand and the two Destroyers, but the four Mirandas might get their asses handed to them by the Mugnificents...

I say Maxwell's forces win, but only the GCS and one Nebula survive...

[359]

"Captain's log; stardate 38658.2. We are en route to investigate a planet, which sensors indicate possess an unusually high aurum content. Additionally several strange energy signatures have been detected in the vicinity of the system, to that end we are being accompanied by the U.S.S. Endeavor, Brratain, Bonchune, Majestic, Nautilus, and Tian An Men. Following this previous war I dearly hope we are merely being over cautious.

-------

To me it would be a decisive victory for the Federation ships based on firepower alone, but that is uninteresting.

And so I shall assume relative parity in firepower. Even so the Federation ships hold a distinct advantage in maneuverability, STL speeds, weapons range, versatility (ability to reroute power etc...), and firing precision. So even with similar weapon capabilities, the Federation ships still comes out on top, but not without losses (unless they realize their extreme range advantage and the slow speed of the CIS ships and just pelt them with torpedoes and phaser fire from 100,000 km out, but that is also very boring).

So I will further assume the starships somehow unknowingly drop out of warp right on top of the CIS fleet (which opens fire and they return it), and do not know flying away will give them an advantage. At this point the proportional durability of the CIS ships gives them an advantage, whereas the Starfleet vessels have an advantage in firepower delivery. So when all is said and done, it really depends on the exact distinction in firepower and the capability of each commander to direct their forces to seize opportunity, and play off of each's advantages and disadvantages.


Either way, Maxwell never gets a win or loss:
1)He would be killed in a plasma fire from all those exploding consoles before vacuum ensues.
2)Gold is not all that valuable to people without money.
:)

[Praeothmin]

Good one...
While I agree that in general, ST does have the range advantage, I think that the average displayed firefight ranges are comparable, and the CIS does have the definite advantage in RoF (the ST side has no Defiant, after all)...

The Mirandas have shown not to be incredibly resilient, IMO, and the massive size advantage for the CIS side means the Mirandas might be matched by their opponents...

In any case, I'd pay to see this battle... :)

[sonofccn]

On the one hand, I think the GCS and two Nebs will take care of the Invisible Hand and the two Destroyers, but the four Mirandas might get their asses handed to them by the Mugnificents...

Possible but I was actually afraid the frigates, which IIRC have been shown to be rather underwhelming compared to a Ventor/Republic cruiser, were the ones outmatched. I'd honestly considered giving them six to make it "fair". Guess I'm glad I didn't. ;)

Another thing, alongside everything the two of you have already mentioned, which might need to be considered is strikecraft. Grievous's flagship was "crawling with Vulture droids" during the battle over Coruscant so its not inconcievable that it could be carrying some for this battle. And even if their only use is as a blunt spamming of kamikazes it could help draw "heat" off of the Invisible Hand/Grievous's fleet.

[Praeothmin]

I don't see the vulture droids doing much damage to any ST ship, honestly...

The most they can hope to achieve is intercept a couple of Photorps to save the bigger ships, but that's all...

[sonofccn]

I don't see the vulture droids doing much damage to any ST ship, honestly...

The most they can hope to achieve is intercept a couple of Photorps to save the bigger ships, but that's all...

I don't know, they have launched torpedoes into a sun before. That might be hard for a little Vulture droid to compete with. ;)

More seriously yeah droid fighters aren't going to be taking down starships by themselves, unless Grievous has the Exterminators on call, being at best a swarm of bees but if the Invisible Hand has any it shouldn't hurt to launch them. Worse case they all get vaped in short order but at least that should tie up a phaser strike or two. Best case maybe they'll get ignored and they can output a continious stream of fire to help "nick" the starfleet ship's to death.

[Lucky]

Good one...
While I agree that in general, ST does have the range advantage, I think that the average displayed firefight ranges are comparable, and the CIS does have the definite advantage in RoF (the ST side has no Defiant, after all)...

How does that help the CIS? It just means the CIS will be shooting in the wrong locations to hit the UFP ships. Star Trek visuals are usually off by a ratio of 10 to 1 or more.

Rate of fire is irrelevant if you are not putting out enough firepower, and firepower isn't very relevant for getting through shields in Star Trek anyway.

The Mirandas have shown not to be incredibly resilient, IMO, and the massive size advantage for the CIS side means the Mirandas might be matched by their opponents...

Which only matters if the CIS has the needed firepower.

[Mith]

Taking place in a "generic" and otherwise uninteresting star system this quick and dirty matchup will pit brawn and skill of the respective sides in a fight to the death. On the side of the United Federation of Planet, fresh from the emotionally taunt Cardassian War, we have the determined Captain Benjamin Maxwell, seasoned Starfleet officer, who will lead the Starfleet's taskforce consisting of:

(1) Galaxy Class starship
(2) Nebula class starships
(4) Miranda class starships {TNG era refit}

Glowering from the opposing corner, serving as senior military officer of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, is the brutal General Grievous, a harden veteran and warrior, whom will command the CIS armada consisting of:

(1) Providence class carrier/destroyer {The Invisible Hand}
(2) Recusant class light destroyers
(4) Munificent-class frigates

Which Commander will take the gold? Who will breath harsh vacuum? You decide!

Starfleet slaughters them. Rather effortlessly.

[2046]

Let's take a moment to ponder this by volume, just because I want to:

Starfleet's taskforce consisting of:

(1) Galaxy Class starship
(2) Nebula class starships
(4) Miranda class starships {TNG era refit}

Galaxy: 5,820,983
Nebula: 4,443,196
Miranda: 217,770

Total volume: 15,578,455m^3
Estimated mass: 23,000,000 tonnes

the CIS armada consisting of:

(1) Providence class carrier/destroyer {The Invisible Hand}
(2) Recusant class light destroyers
(4) Munificent-class frigates

The Hand: 6,436,107
CIS frigate/battlecruiser: 2,238,022

Total of the Hand plus 4 frigates: 15,388,195m^3

I don't have information for the "Recusant" type, but per Wookieepedia and my eyeball I'd give it around 5 million cubic meters . . . it is supposedly longer than the Hand but it has a big skinny section reminiscent of the frigate. So, we'll add 10 million more, since there are two of them.

Total volume: 25,400,000ish m^3
Estimated mass: 19,000,000 tonnes

In other words, the CIS force only out-volumes the Federation fleet by a 10 million cubic meter margin, which is 66% or so but, frankly, I don't think that's enough. Not to mention the fact that they're probably outweighed. Assuming one of the Nebulas is Maxwell's own Phoenix, I'd happily wager that it could take the whole group by itself. Maxwell is perfectly content to make use of a range advantage.

The CIS fleet's best hope is to launch fighters (the Hand being the only one known to have a huge bay for them . . . the frigates don't seem to have a lot of fighter capability from what's been observed that I recall). The goal of the fighters would be to charge toward and, if allowed, perhaps even harry the Federation force long enough for the CIS fleet to escape via hyperspace, which is a canonically common enough tactic for the coward Grievous. However, if Maxwell has been told that Grievous has a spoon behind that facemask then the clankers are paste.

If the CIS is expected to win . . . um . . . can they be retrofit with cloaks for this battle? It would be a start, even though their cloaking isn't that good.

Who will breath harsh vacuum? You decide!

Only Grievous has been seen to survive vacuum, though Maxwell could sniff him out despite intervening vacuum. The man can smell . . . he told Picard so, and he was right.

[Picard]

The most they can hope to achieve is intercept a couple of Photorps to save the bigger ships, but that's all...

You mean, kamikaze run into torpedoes and hope that they can't differentiate between a fighter and a capital ship... even Star Trek capital ships never try to take down torpedoes, I don't think Star Wars fighters stand a chance.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The Munificents' main guns ought to be very powerful, or offer a superior range.

The Invisible Hand is resilient, but against SW weapons. Her survival in orbit of Coruscant for quite some time, I suppose, means something there.
The IH isn't bigger than Venators and firepower figures for Venators could range for about tens to hundreds of kilotons to perhaps a couple on megatons on full volley spread, with an official max range, near effective, of 100 km, which is still way above the usual approach or even engagement range used by Trek ships.

The GCS's terawatt core would most likely allow phasers to be charged to hundreds of TW and have shields offer a plausible in-universe defense against the less efficient but more powerful photon torpedoes of other ships (in comparison to the focused phasers and their extra effects).

We also know that Trek has a long history of dealing with phaser weapons and their hulls can deal with that. Large amounts of inert natural matter suffer greatly from the application of phaser weapons, because of the NDF effect, and in SW we know that weapons with very similar effects completely laugh at all the known defenses found on star ships.

If it weren't the case, perhaps we could see SW's really have a chance to slapping the Galaxy-class around.

I wish we'd seen the droid fighters ready to intercept enemy missiles to protect the mothership. Because that's an avantage for the CIS army.

But without defenses capable of repelling weapons that do exactly what phasers do, I think it would be a butchery. TNG-era NDF weapons and beyond are a nightmare.
However, in the case of SW, the MCPS device managed to pass shields somehow because it precisely wasn't focused like a beam.
There's no reason to believe the Trek forces would ever consider not focusing their phasers against enemy ships. Plus without weapons working exactly on the same principle, although effects are very similar, it's hard to say.
Both universes' weapons seem to work around the concept of phase.

[Mr. Oragahn]

NDF weapons in SW

[sonofccn]

The Invisible Hand is resilient, but against SW weapons. Her survival in orbit of Coruscant for quite some time, I suppose, means something there.

Not just the IH, in the ROTS novelization General Grievous makes mention that Chancellor Palpatine should have been out system "hours ago" implying the Confederate naval force had been stuck/trapped by the Republic Navy for that duration and presumbly had been exchanging blows.

The IH isn't bigger than Venators and firepower figures for Venators could range for about tens to hundreds of kilotons to perhaps a couple on megatons on full volley spread

How is a "full volley spread" being defined? All their guns firing? Because looking at this image it appears to have four of the big gun emplacements on either side of its "conning towers" which , if 2046 doesn't mind me linking to his work, running with the lower range offered to vaporize a small town would put it well over a couple of megatons by themselves let alone any other, smaller guns the Venator might posses.

with an official max range, near effective, of 100 km, which is still way above the usual approach or even engagement range used by Trek ships.

An oddly hard liner claim but, to be succient, Federation vessels have been observed hitting vastly smaller targets at a hundred times the aformentioned "offical max range". If you wish I will happily dig up the examples from "The Wounded" and such but I feel this is well trodded ground.

More to the point, while I feel justified in assuming the Federation won't exploit their range advantage, Confederate/Republic accuracy observed for single digit kilometers is so absymal and their agility/mobility so limited thier only hope would be to close and try and drown the Federation in a deluge of fire.

The GCS's terawatt core would most likely allow phasers to be charged to hundreds of TW

I'm curious by what measure did you use to arrive at a terrawatt range, X-XXX I presume, for a Galaxy class reactor? An Intrepid class, a generally smaller and less impressive mid sized ship, boasts five Petawatts in a solitary conduit:

SEVEN: It is. The optical assembly is properly aligned. I'm ready to access the main power supply.
KIM: After you. Wait! What are you doing? There are five million gigawatts running through there!

Not that I'm claiming all of that can be channeled to phasers of course but a GCS should be able to generate far more than Terrawatts.

Large amounts of inert natural matter suffer greatly from the application of phaser weapons, because of the NDF effect

Well as far as I know NDF is non-canon and, hat tip to Lucky, the nearest I recall the show ever coming to it was in "Cost of living living" {TNG-05}:

DATA: Sir, the core is composed of nitrium and chrondite. It is unlikely another photon torpedo will be of any effect.
PICARD: Mister Worf, prepare a tractor beam.
WORF: Aye, sir.
DATA: Thirty seconds to impact.
WORF: Captain, I am unable to get a positive lock with the tractor beam. There is magnetic field interference emanating from the core materials.
PICARD: Activate a deflector dish. If we project a particle beam, we may be able to produce a disruptive nuclear effect within the core.
WORF: Aye, sir.
DATA: Impact in seventeen seconds.
WORF: Particle beam activated. The target has been destroyed, Captain.

And it required the deflector dish rather than the phaser. As well we have examples as such from "That Which Survives" {TOS-03}:

KIRK: There are no good ways, Sulu.
(Kirk phasers the ground, but it only cuts a shallow trench in the soil.)
SULU: That's the same red rock.
KIRK: My phaser didn't cut through it.
MCCOY: Whatever it is, it has a mighty high melting point.
KIRK: Eight thousand degrees centigrade. It looks like igneous rock, but infinitely denser.

Suggesting phasers' destructive ability are at least partially thermal in nature rather than a magic disintergrator.

However, in the case of SW, the MCPS device managed to pass shields somehow because it precisely wasn't focused like a beam.

I'm not sure I follow. The page-image you linked too merely stated the Metal-Crystal phase shifter bypassed shields rather than explaining why it did so.

[Trinoya]

The big question for me would be if the federation ships are allowed to use their warp drives as long as they stay in the star system?

If so technically they could always withdrawal from any fight, conduct repairs, and return, allowing them to choose the engagement every time.