The Die is Cast, ICS, and a retrospective on vs. debates.

[Who is like God arbour]

Today, I found this at SDN:

• • • • BIG DISCLAIMER:
        
        My objective here is to just provide information to versus fanfiction authors so they can base stories on these calcs to make them both "plausible" and interesting, rather than one-sided stomper adventures, because I've seen the amount of fun fanfiction of Star Trek vs. Star Wars totally disappear since ICS was published, and I regret that rather severely as it was, to me, the truly entertaining part of the versus debates.
        
        
        I was heavily involved in Star Wars vs. Star Trek versus debates for a long time, and was responsible for some maximal size scalings for the Imperial fleet. A lot has changed in Star Wars since then. I pretty much tuned out after ROTS and didn't revisit things until perhaps the past two months. The versus debates were functionally ended by the insertion of the 200 gigaton turbolaser estimate into the Acclamator stats in the Incredible Cross Sections.
        
        One problem with them however is that they were a decidedly high-end estimate of Star Wars firepower. Extremely high end--excessively high end, one could argue. Looking back, this troubles me somewhat, because for a long time we did argue, as debaters are wont to do (and there was nothing wrong with it), for low-end estimates of Star Trek firepower.
        
        It would be only fair to observe that if we are to accept 200 gigaton yields for medium turbolasers that we necessarily also accept the maximum possible energy output for Star Trek. And this is very much higher than what is commonly admitted. We have examples from both TOS and The Die is Cast in DS9, and they both suggest a rather substantial capability on the part of Star Trek.
        
        The 200 gigaton level for a quad turbolaser bolt is simply a statement. It is, quite arguably, on exactly the same level as the idea that 20 Romulan and Cardassian ships could "destroy" the crust in an hour, and the mantle in 5 hours, of a habitable planet. Therefore, we will hold them to be equally valid and see what comes of it. The rationale is straightforward: 200 gigaton turbolaser bolts are substantially in excess of what is seen on the screen. So is the stated capacity of Star Trek energy weapons from TDIC.
        
        Star Wars pictoral analysis shows firepower much more powerful than Star Trek pictoral analysis based firepower. This isn't in dispute, and I haven't become a Trekkie. What I am trying to do is inject some life back into the vs. debates and a more sensible comparison of the two universes. What attracted me to the "warsie" side of things was first of all that Star Wars depicts an immensely old, immensely sophisticated civilization on a galaxy-spanning scale. Star Trek is about a young civilization.
        
        But I do not really think that Star Trek displays a level of firepower, or general technology, much worse than in the days of Xim the Despot in Star Wars history. There is still some real grounds for comparison.
        
        One of the most important things to do at this point is to have a geology lesson. The mantle is not liquid. The temperature of rocks in the mantle is already much greater than the melting point of the rocks in the mantle. It is held a solid due to lithostatic pressure, not due to its energy content. Or, to put it simply, you can make the mantle liquid simply by eliminating the lithostatic pressure on it. You do not need to heat it up.
        
        This puts the claim of being able to destroy the mantle in 5 hours, which otherwise sounds extremely powerful, into context: The crust is 5 - 120km thick, and the lower part of the lithosphere is 50 - 120km thick and composed of rigid rock. It would be quite possible for a civilization like those shown in Star Trek to create deep shelters inside the upper lithosphere; this provides the necessity of the Romulan-Cardassian fleet to continue firing to "destroy the mantle" quite amply: The objective is to destroy enough rock to remove the lithostatic pressure so that the planet experiences liquifaction.
        
        More generally, "destroying" the lithosphere (the crust+solid mantle) essentially destroys the tectonic plates. This is a relatively more sensible proposition and in shattering them one expects a massive volcanic overturn layer. This would be analogous to an artificially induced "mantle overturn" like has occurred naturally in the past on Venus.
        
        Total heat flow at the surface of the Earth from convention is around 4.0E+13 W. Of this only something like 8.0E+11W is actually released by volcanism. This is about 2% of the total; but that's not all the energy involved because the other 98% doesn't exclusively radiate out through the crust. The amount of energy that is being stored per second in Venus, a very similar planet, for a major mantle overturn event, is probably about equivalent to the energy involved in both volcanism and driving plate tectonics on Earth.
        
        "Energy of plate tectonics calculation and project" by NH Swedan suggests the energy of the 'tectonic engine' of the planet is 1.29E+19 J/yr or 4.0E+11W. Collectively this means that the energy Venus is not successfully rejecting by the lack of a tectonic regime, leading to mantle overturn events, is about 1.2E+12W. With a mantle overturn event every 300 million years, Venus would have stored 1.0E+28 J of energy for such an event to occur. This is approximately 5,900 times the energy required to melt the surface of a planet to a depth of 1 metre based on Dr. Curtis Saxton's calculations.
        
        If rough surface destruction takes 1 hour, and the destruction of the mantle a further 5 hours, a total energy input for 20 ships over 6 hours would yield an average firepower (we assume higher for a D'Deridex and lower for a Keldon) of 2.3E+22 W. If a mantle overturn event is every 500 million years, this goes to 3.8E+22W.
        
        Comparing to the 200 gigaton turbolaser rating.
        
        We may take it that a quad turbolaser with a 200 gigaton yield per shot is comparable to the beam trench notch cannon on an ISD-I. These medium bolts were about 3 - 4 times smaller than the largest turbolaser bolts observed by Dr. Saxton in scaling for the size of turbolaser bolts from a Star Destroyer. Maximum rate of fire observed from a turbolaser on a Star Destroyer has been one round per 2 seconds. Therefore an average figure is about 300 - 400 gigatons/second per heavy gun mount. With the secondary guns producing something like a trivial 11% of the total energy consumption of the guns, the rest going to the 64 primary heavy turbolaser cannon, 21,000 gigatons per second is a lower bound and 28,000 gigatons per second is an upper bound. At the lower bound this is 8.8E+22W, and at the upper bound this is 1.2E+23W, though this assumes the medium guns fire at the same rate as heavy ones; they may fire up to four times faster, which would drive the upper bound to more like 1.6E+23W.
        
        The end result of this is that if we're using maximal calculations for both the Galactic Empire and Star Trek, we actually get extremely similar power figures for both Star Wars and Star Trek. However, this is based only on firepower. If we use the acceleration of the Star Destroyers scene in the Battle of Endor, we get noticeably higher figures for the Star Destroyer's total energy output: Around 1E+25 W based on Dr. Saxton's calculations for typical density of a warship and the 3,000g acceleration observed.
        
        However, my calculations for Star Trek firepower have been relatively conservative with the set of assumptions made and rounding potentials; they may have also intended to complete the entire attack in only 5 hours, not six. Collectively this means a true "maximum upper limit" for the energy output, including both shields and weapons and drives, ancillary systems, etc, of an average Alpha/Beta Quadrant ship is probably more around 1.5E+23W, in the same way that for a Star Destroyer this figure is based on firepower alone around 2.5E+23W for shields and weapons alike, and closer to 1E+25W for observed acceleration. We can assume however that the acceleration in question was truly a "full emergency thrust" situation to trap the Rebel fleet quickly; it was probably conducted without energy shields and weapons up to maximize speed, as anything else would imply that weapons are a trivial component of power generated on an ISD, which is irrational. If the ~1.0E+25W for a Star Destroyer's total power output based on acceleration is accurate, then it would almost certainly require firepower to be at the higher end, around 1.6E+23W, with shielding probably double that if we assume that the designers rationally wished to provide equal particle and energy shielding. This still means that something like 75 - 80% of an ISD's energy output is actually going to engines and ancillary systems, though certainly that isn't unreasonable with the enormous power outputs of real life warships also being essentially almost entirely directed to engines in percentile terms.
        
        Based on this, an actual comparison of maximal firepower levels between Star Wars and Star Trek could actually allow for the ISD to only have ~65 - 70 times the energy production of an averaged Keldon/D'Deridex and has about 5.3 times the volume as the averaged K/DD. This would suggest that the energy density per-tonne of a Star Destroyer is actually only about 12 times greater than that of a Star Trek vessel. In terms of firepower density, the Star Trek ships would actually be slightly ahead -- 1.26 times the firepower density of a Star Destroyer. But this isn't likely for the simple reason that the K/DD's were firing warheads; the Star Wars firepower is based entirely off of energy weapons, and we know from EU sources that Star Destroyers have missile and mine launchers with the Assault Proton Torpedoes the former can fire being twelve times more powerful than a normal Proton torpedo, and viable anti-ship weapons in their own right. We also know from canon that Star Destroyers can fire flak rounds, and that the guns seen in ROTS expelling expended cartridges were multirole mass drivers for giving an acceleration advantage to torpedoes/missiles and firing flak bombs and direct impactor projectiles. The energy required for these mass drivers, which Star Destroyers must have based on the official publications (since they are explicitly described as the only weapon that produces flak bursts, and we see Star Destroyers generating flak bursts), further drive up Star Destroyer weapons energy output, and the damage the warheads from the missile/torpedo launchers and the mass drivers of course provides additional energy output to balance the relative firepower-to-tonne capabilities of the Star Wars and Star Trek ships.
        
        The final conclusion of this kind of analysis is that if we go entirely based on upper limits for both Star Trek and Star Wars, we actually have a pretty fair fight -- the Federation fleet in "Favour the Bold" of 600 ships might well have been worth 8 - 10 ISD-IIs.

I thought, it may be interesting to read, what you have to say to that.

[359]

The final conclusion of this kind of analysis is that if we go entirely based on upper limits for both Star Trek and Star Wars, we actually have a pretty fair fight -- the Federation fleet in "Favour the Bold" of 600 ships might well have been worth 8 - 10 ISD-IIs.

Ah, yes. It is so very fair and not a one-sided stomper adventure at all.

However, all sarcasm aside, the author slightly confuses the purpose of the DS9: "The Die is Cast" bombardment. Not only was its goal to kill everything on the planet, which their suggested method would certainly accomplish, but it also was intended to have a secondary objective of being a symbol of the victory of the alpha quadrant organizations. It was intended to deture anyone else from trying to make inroads into the alpha quadrant, plus, it wouldn't hurt them to have the Federation witness their show of strength as well. In the end their goal was not nearly the death of every single living thing on that planet, but to leave the planet as a floating core, bereft any outer covering. This is far more in line with the intent of the episode than a relatively simple mantle overturn which does not actually result in the destruction of either the mantle or crust, it just re-arranges them.

Although it is an interesting take to use just the high-ends, it runs the risk of being an outlier and entirely misrepresenting the idea as a whole.

[sonofccn]

Meh, if you have to have figures and calculations to justify "interesting" fanfiction or otherwise prevent a boring "curbstomp" I'd wager that is part of the problem. Along with rising pesudo-science to some exalted quasi-religious status but I digress.

Besides concurring with 359 on the dangerous of using a possible outlier, through while above average I would argue TDIC scale firepower does have some support in the greater Trek, I will add I found it interesting that immeditly following a statement that there is no direct support of ICS firepower in the movies neccesitated the poster rush off reassurances that Wars was invariably the superior of the two in any event, "much more powerful" to quote, despite the entire self-expressed purpose of the post to ease or lower the descrepency between the two Verses. I also found it bloody hilarious that 60 to 1 is the poster's idea of a "pretty fair fight". I'd hate to see an unfair one.

[Praeothmin]

She created a similar thread at SBC...

[Mike DiCenso]

Nice to see you back, WILGA. However, this thread belongs in the Other Websites forum, not here, since this is a discussion about something that was started on two different websites.
-Mike

[Lucky]

The final conclusion of this kind of analysis is that if we go entirely based on upper limits for both Star Trek and Star Wars, we actually have a pretty fair fight -- the Federation fleet in "Favour the Bold" of 600 ships might well have been worth 8 - 10 ISD-IIs.

Ah, yes. It is so very fair and not a one-sided stomper adventure at all.

However, all sarcasm aside, the author slightly confuses the purpose of the DS9: "The Die is Cast" bombardment. Not only was its goal to kill everything on the planet, which their suggested method would certainly accomplish, but it also was intended to have a secondary objective of being a symbol of the victory of the alpha quadrant organizations. It was intended to deture anyone else from trying to make inroads into the alpha quadrant, plus, it wouldn't hurt them to have the Federation witness their show of strength as well. In the end their goal was not nearly the death of every single living thing on that planet, but to leave the planet as a floating core, bereft any outer covering. This is far more in line with the intent of the episode than a relativelysimple mantle overturn which does not actually result in the destruction of either the mantle or crust, it just re-arranges them.

When you consider the masses involved, I'm not sure what is suggested is not in Trek's favor.

-=-=-=-=-=-
I'd suggest you look at TNG: Booby trap. They actually showed what happens when a Trek Ships open fire with "primitive weapons" on defenseless planets.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=53

Although it is an interesting take to use just the high-ends, it runs the risk of being an outlier and entirely misrepresenting the idea as a whole.

I think the High Ends in Star Trek happen often enough, and with enough hard evidence that they can't be disregarded.

Star Trek High Ends

Enterprise

(Degra is standing with T'Pol as Tucker works lying on the floor by the wall. The main display screen is a maze of fuzz and distortion) 


T'POL: We've been working to reconstruct our database. 


TUCKER: The pounding your ships gave us didn't help much. Try it now. I'm going to reset the optical subprocessors. That might clear it up. When we slipped through your detection grid, we got a look at the weapon you're building. An impressive piece of engineering. Hell, it'd take at least a thousand starships like Enterprise to blow up an entire planet. You know, I'd like to see the telemetry from the probe you launched against Earth. 


T'POL: Increase the data resolution. 


TUCKER: I assume you were watching the attack, calculating the blast yields. Boy, you must have been pretty damn excited. I mean, that beam cut one hell of a swath through Florida. That's the name of one of the places you destroyed. Florida. 


T'POL: Commander. 


TUCKER: Did you actually see the cities burning? The houses, the people being vaporised? I had a sister there. 


T'POL: Commander! 


ARCHER: How are the repairs coming. 


TUCKER: Just need a few more minutes, Captain. 


ARCHER: (to Degra) Why don't you join me in my Ready room until they're finished. (Degra leaves. To Trip) Let's stick to the job at hand. 


TUCKER: Aye sir. (Archer leaves) 


T'POL: The Captain is trying to gain Degra's trust.

TOS

DEPAUL: All stations reporting. Deflector screens rigged at full power. Phaser crews ready. Sensors reading zero. Correction. Mister Scott. 


SCOTT: Yes, Mister DePaul? 


DEPAUL: Sensor readings just shot off the scale. 


SCOTT: Well, now. They're taking pot shots at us. Holding, Mister DePaul? 


DEPAUL: Screens firm, sir. Extremely powerful sonic vibrations. Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power. If those screens weren't up, we'd be totally disrupted by now. 


MCCOY: Well, I guess that answers our questions, Mister Scott. They're not very friendly, are they? 


SCOTT: Aye, but what about our Captain and the landing party down there somewhere? 


MCCOY: We get them out. 


SCOTT: If they're alive, and if we can find them. That's a big planet. 


MCCOY: Not too big for the Enterprise to handle if it has to. 


SCOTT: We can't fire full phasers with our screens up, and We can't lower our screens with their disruptors on us. Of course I could treat them to a few dozen photon torpedoes.

DECKER [OC]: Captain's log, stardate 4202.1. Exceptionally heavy subspace interference still prevents our contacting Starfleet to inform them of the destroyed solar systems we have encountered. We are now entering system L-374. Science Officer Masada reports the fourth planet seems to be breaking up. We are going to investigate. 


KIRK: The fourth planet. Only two left now. Scotty, pull the microtapes from the sensor memory banks and beam them aboard to Spock. I want a full analysis, a complete report of what happened when they went in on that planet. 


DECKER: We tried to contact Starfleet. No one heard. No one! We couldn't run. 


KIRK: What happened to your crew? 


DECKER: Oh, I had to beam them down. We were dead. No power, our phasers useless. I stayed behind, the last man. The Captain, the last man aboard the ship. That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it? And then it hit again and the transporter went out. They were down there, and I'm up here. 


KIRK: What hit? What attacked you? 


DECKER: They say there's no devil, Jim, but there is. Right out of hell, I saw it. 


KIRK: Matt, where's your crew? 


DECKER: On the third planet. 


KIRK: There is no third planet. 


DECKER: Don't you think I know that? There was, but not anymore. They called me. They begged me for help, four hundred of them. I couldn't. I couldn't. (breaks down in tears) 


SCOTT: Captain, Washburn has our report. 


KIRK: Go. 


WASHBURN: We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated. 


KIRK: Deactivated? Scotty, could some kind of general energy dampening field do that, and would the same type of thing account for the heavy subspace interference? 


SCOTT: Aye, that all adds up. But what sort of a thing could do all that? 


DECKER: If you'd seen it, you'd know. The whole thing's a weapon. It must be. 


KIRK: What does it look like? 


DECKER: Well, it's miles long, with a maw that could swallow a dozen starships. It destroys planets, chops them into rubble. 


KIRK: What is it, an alien ship? Or is it alive, or is it 


DECKER: Both or neither. I don't know. 


KIRK: Matt, your log stated that the fourth planet was breaking up. You went in to investigate. 


DECKER: We saw this thing hovering over the planet, slicing out chunks of it with a force beam. 


KIRK: Did you run a scanner check on it? What kind of a beam? 


DECKER: Pure antiproton. Absolutely pure. 


KIRK: (answers communicator) Kirk here. 


SPOCK [OC]: Spock here, Captain.

SPOCK: Temporarily, Captain. Our shields absorbed energy equivalent to ninety of our photon torpedoes. 


KIRK: Ninety? 


SPOCK: I may add, the energy used repulsing this first attack reduced our shielding power twenty percent. 


UHURA: First attack, sir? 


KIRK: I think we can expect others, Lieutenant. 


SPOCK: We can resist three more such attacks. The fourth will shatter our shields completely. 


KIRK: Mister Spock, pinpoint the source. Mister Sulu, evasive manoeuvres. 


SULU: Aye, sir. 


KIRK: Lieutenant, contact Starfleet Command. Patch in my log. Tell them what has happened. Tell them the entire Malurian race seems to have been destroyed by an unknown agency, and that we are under attack by an unidentified force.

SPOCK: An ounce should be sufficient. We can drain it from the ship's engines and transport it to the planet surface in a magnetic vacuum field.

STARBASE [OC]: You will divert immediately to sector three nine J. 


KIRK: Sir, the Enterprise just completed an exhausting mission. We're on our way in for R and R. There must be another starship in that sector. 


STARBASE [OC]: Negative. This is a rescue priority. We've lost all contact with solar system Gamma Seven-A, which the Intrepid was investigating. And we've just lost contact with the Intrepid. Report progress. 


KIRK: Order acknowledged. Kirk out. Mister Kyle, you heard the order. Set course for Gamma Seven-A, warp five. 


KYLE: Aye, sir. 


CHEKOV: Captain I have just completed a full long-range scan of Gamma Seven-A system. It is dead. 


KIRK: Dead? It's a fourth magnitude sun. There are billions of inhabitants there. 


CHEKOV: It is dead.

-=-=-=-=-=-

KIRK: Spock, you may have been right. We've lost contact with the Intrepid and we're out of communication with an entire solar system. Any update from Starfleet? 


UHURA: I cannot filter out the distortion, sir. It's getting worse. 


KYLE: Captain, deflector shields just snapped on. 


KIRK: Slow to warp three. 


KYLE: Warp three, sir. 


SPOCK: Indications of energy turbulence ahead. Unable to analyse. I've never encountered readings like this before. 


KIRK: Scanners on. Magnification three on the screen. 


KYLE: Magnification factor three, sir. 


UHURA: Exactly what are we looking for, Mister Spock? 


SPOCK: I would assume that. 


(In the middle of the viewscreen is a black blob.) 


KIRK: What is that? 


CHEKOV: Perhaps an interstellar dust cloud. 


SPOCK: Not very likely, Ensign. 


KIRK: No. You'd be able to see stars through a dust cloud. Looks like a hole in space. Readings, Mister Spock. 


SPOCK: Still not able to analyse, Captain. Sensors are feeding data to the computers now. Whatever this dark zone is, it lies directly in line with the course I calculate for the Intrepid and the Gamma Seven-A system. 


KIRK: Hold present course. Slow to warp one. 


KYLE: Warp factor one, sir. 


KIRK: Mister Chekov, prepare to launch a telemetry probe into that zone. Direct computer feed to Mister Spock. 


CHEKOV: Aye, sir. Probe ready. Switching data feed to library computer. 


KIRK: Launch probe. 


CHEKOV: Probe launched, sir.

-=-=-=-=-=-

KIRK: This thing has a negative energy charge. Everything seems to work in reverse. We'll use anti-matter. 


SCOTT: Aye, it couldn't swallow that. 


KIRK: Mister Chekov, prepare a probe. Scotty, we'll need a magnetic bottle for the charge. How soon? 


SCOTT: It's on its way, sir. 


KIRK: Mister Chekov, we'll use a timing detonator for the probe. Work out a setting. 


CHEKOV: Aye, sir. 


KIRK: Helmsman, when do you estimate arrival at nucleus? 


KYLE: Seven minutes, sir. 


MCCOY: How close are you going to it? 


KIRK: Point blank range. We'll implant it then back away. 


MCCOY: Why? The probe has a range of 


KIRK: With the eddies and currents in that protoplasm, the probe could drift thousands of kilometres. We must be exactly on target, because we won't have a second chance. Bones, time for another stimulant. 


MCCOY: How long do you think you can keep taking that stuff? It'll blow you apart. 


KIRK: Keep me together for another seven minutes. That's all I need.

GARTH: And so have I been. I have charted more new worlds than any man in history. 


KIRK: And tried to destroy Antos Four. Why? 


GARTH: Well, I could say because they were actively hostile to the Federation. 


KIRK: Yes, you could say, but that would be untrue. 


GARTH: Agreed. Actually they were quite harmless, and they made me whole when I was maimed and dying. And in my gratitude, I offered them the galaxy. They rejected me, and I condemned them to death. 


SPOCK: How could you, a Starship fleet Captain, believe that a Federation crew would blindly obey your order to destroy the entire Antos race, a people famous for their benevolence and peaceful pursuits? 


GARTH: That was my only miscalculation. I had changed. I had risen above this decadent weakness which still has you in its command, by the way, Captain. My crew had not. I couldn't sway them, but my new crew, the men in this room, will obey my orders without question. Gentlemen, you have eyes but you cannot see. Galaxies surround us, limitless vistas. And yet the Federation would have us grub away like some ants on some somewhat larger than usual anthill. But I am not an insect. I am master of the universe, and I must claim my domain.

-=-=-=-=-=-

GARTH: Well done. Well, Captain, you continue to resist. How stupid of you. Put him in that chair right here. I've arranged a small entertainment. I wouldn't want him to miss any of it. Well, Captain, even you must admit that I'm a genius. What you see here is my latest invention. This is an explosive, the most powerful one in history. If I were to drop this flask, the resulting explosion would vaporise this planet. Now do you see why it is ridiculous to resist me? Well, perhaps you require the demonstration I've arranged. Watch closely. 


(Shutters open to show the planet surface on a screen.) 


GARTH: Now, it is true that she is deadly as a poisonous serpent, but she is also a beautiful woman, and you have held her in your arms, Captain. I've ordered my men to drive her out of the protective dome. And, of course, she would choke to death on the outside in minutes. 


(On the screen, Marta is struggling against two figures in environment suits.) 


GARTH: But I've arranged a more merciful end for her because after all, Captain, she is my consort. One tiny crystal implanted in her necklace, a portion of this explosive no bigger than a grain of sand. I propose to detonate it from here.

TNG

(Wesley and Data are playing 3D chess. Outside is a field of planetary fragments)



WESLEY: This was the final battle, wasn't it? 


DATA: Neither side intended Orelious Nine to be the decisive conflict. 


WESLEY: There's not much left, is there. 


DATA: The destruction is remarkable considering the primitive weapons of the period.

Captain's Log. Stardate 44805.7. For generations, the people of Kaelon Two have been working to revitalise their dying sun. The Federation has offered to assist in testing what may be a solution to this problem.

[Observation lounge]

TIMICIN: Of course, the basic theories of helium fusion enhancement have been discussed for over a century, but there's been no practical method of application until now. 


DATA: The modifications that you have made to the torpedo's guidance systems are remarkable, Doctor. 


TIMICIN: Well, we'll see. They still have to be proved. But now at least it's possible. I'd never dared hope for such a perfect match with our own sun. 


PICARD: My only regret is that it took us three years to find a suitable sun after you had first contacted us. 


TIMICIN: We're not used to dealing with other worlds. We're not used to asking for anything from others. Your offer of help has given us a possible means of survival. It has taken forty years of my life to develop the programming that will control your photon torpedoes. It has been my life. Thank you for this opportunity. My only wish has been to find a way to revive our sun before I die.

-=-=-=-=-=-

[Bridge]


PICARD: Very well. Mister Worf? 


WORF: Photon torpedoes armed and targeted. 


PICARD: Fire in sequence. 


WORF: First volley released. 


DATA: Tracking torpedoes. Entry programme confirmed. 


WORF: Second volley released.


[Engineering]


LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core. 


TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal. 


LAFORGE: Ignition sequence, six seconds


[Bridge]


LAFORGE [OC]: Five seconds. Four.


[Engineering]


LAFORGE: Three seconds. Now. Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing. 


TIMICIN: What about heat and pressure levels? 


LAFORGE: Steady so far. Density at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimetre. Temperature approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin. 


TIMICIN: We want it to stabilise at two hundred and twenty million.

[Bridge]


DATA: Pressure wave harmonics dispersing. Temperature in target zone increasing to eighty one million degrees, sir. 


LAFORGE [OC]: Still rising.


[Engineering]


LAFORGE: Temperature at ninety million degrees Kelvin. And now one hundred ten million. Looking good. One hundred thirty seven.


[Bridge]


DATA: Radiation and pressure levels still stable. 


LAFORGE [OC]: Temperature is one hundred and seventy million degrees Kelvin.


[Engineering]


LAFORGE: One ninety. And now two hundred million. 


TIMICIN: It's happening. 


LAFORGE: Two oh seven and rising. Two nineteen. And twenty. Two twenty. And holding. Looks like congratulations may be in order.


[Bridge]


PICARD: Mister Data? 


DATA: Turbulence patterns are within predicted parameters.


[Engineering]


(Composite sensor analysis 4077 display) 


LAFORGE: Two twenty two.


[Bridge]


DATA: Temperature is rising in the core again, Captain. Two hundred and thirty million degrees Kelvin. 


LAFORGE [OC]: Still rising, Captain.


[Engineering]


LAFORGE: Two fifty one.


[Bridge]


DATA: Rate exceeding critical level. Core density is becoming unstable. 


RIKER: Let's get the hell out of here. 


PICARD: Ensign, warp two now! 


(a bright new supernova lights the heavens)

Captain's log, stardate 47410.2. The Atrean government has requested assistance in averting a natural disaster. Two of their geologists have come aboard, one of whom is a human who has been living on Atrea Four.


[Observation lounge]


JULIANA: Captain, our situation has worsened since my husband and I first contacted you. The molten core of our planet is not just cooling, it's begun to solidify. 


PRAN: Our gravitational field has been affected. Seismic activity has increased by a factor of three. 


JULIANA: If the cooling continues at this rate Atrea will become uninhabitable in thirteen months. 


LAFORGE: We could minimise seismic activity by creating isobaric fissures and relieving some of the tectonic stress, but that would just be a temporary fix. 


DATA: The only permanent solution would be to re-liquefy the core. 


LAFORGE: These pockets in the magma layer, how close are they to the molten region of the core? 


JULIANA: A few kilometres, why? 


LAFORGE: Data, do you think that's close enough for ferro-plasmic infusion? 


DATA: The procedure will involve using the ship's phasers to drill down through the planet's surface into the pockets, where we would set up a series of plasma infusion units. 


LAFORGE: We'll trigger the units by firing modulated energy bursts down through the shafts. 


JULIANA: I see. Injecting sufficient plasma directly into the core should trigger a chain reaction, and that will reliquify the magma. 


DATA: It should be possible to stabilise the core temperature at ninety three percent of normal. 


PRAN: If it works, the core would remain molten for centuries. 


PICARD: If you give your permission, we could begin immediately.

-=-=-=-=-=-

RIKER [OC]: Bridge to Engineering. 


LAFORGE: La Forge here. Go ahead, Commander. 


RIKER [OC]: We've established a synchronous orbit over the drilling site. 


LAFORGE: Phaser modifications are online, sir. 


DATA: My calculations indicate


[Bridge]


DATA [OC]: The first phaser blast will be approximately nineteen seconds in duration. 


RIKER: Acknowledged. 


PRAN: Someone's checked his calculations, of course. 


RIKER: No, but I'm sure Mister Data knows what he's doing. 


PRAN: Even so, he is a machine. Someone should check up on him. 


RIKER: I have complete confidence in Mister Data's ability to check up on himself. Mister Worf? 


WORF: Phasers locked on target. 


RIKER: Fire when ready.


[Engineering]


DATA: We are within two kilometres of the magma pocket. 


JULIANA: Another five seconds should do it. We've broken through.


[Bridge]


WORF: Terminating the beam.

DS9

TAIN [on monitor]: Since the Jem'Hadar are genetically addicted to a drug that only the Founders can provide, we expect the Jem'Hadar to weaken and die once their supplies of the drug run out. A matter of days by our estimates. However, that will give them enough time to stage some kind of counterattack against the Alpha Quadrant, so I suggest you place the Cardassian fleet on alert. I take this action not in defiance of the Cardassian state, but in defence of it. You in the Central Command have neglected the security of our people and allowed peace with Bajor and the Federation to blind you to the real threat, the Dominion. I intend to remove that threat. Let history be my judge. 


TODDMAN [on monitor]: That message was intercepted by a Federation outpost earlier today. A similar message was sent to the Romulan Senate. Now, both governments are denying any prior knowledge of Tain's plans and calling this a rogue operation. 


BASHIR: Are they going to do anything to stop Tain? 


TODDMAN [on monitor]: Both the Romulans and the Cardassians claim to be studying ways to stop Tain, but we believe that they'll just sit back and wait to see if he succeeds or not. 


DAX: But sir, that could plunge Romulus and Cardassia into war with the Dominion. 


TODDMAN [on monitor]: Only if he fails, Lieutenant. His plan looks like it has a fair chance of success. He's commanding a fleet of twenty ships manned by combat veterans. They know the location of the Founders' homeworld and they've modified their cloaks so the Jem'Hadar can't detect their approach. 


KIRA: It sounds like you're hoping Tain will succeed. 


TODDMAN [on monitor]: I never hope for war, Major. But if it comes, I'd rather see the Dominion on the losing side. However, we have to plan for the worst. Ben, I want you to evacuate DS Nine of all non-essential personnel and put the Defiant on standby alert. Even if Tain succeeds, the Jem'Hadar are going to come screaming out of the wormhole looking for revenge and they may not be too particular who their targets are. 


SISKO: Admiral, we believe Security Chief Odo is aboard one of the Romulan ships. 


EDDINGTON: Odo's message said the runabout had been caught in a tractor beam. That suggests he was captured and taken aboard one of their ships. 


SISKO: I'd like permission to take the Defiant into the Gamma Quadrant and try to determine if he's still alive. 


TODDMAN [on monitor]: I'm sorry about your officer, but there's nothing we can do. I want the Defiant guarding Bajor. That's your top priority. Toddman out.

-=-=-=-=-=-

LOVOK: We know that the Founders' planet lies at approximately these coordinates within the Omarion nebula. As you can see, there are no Jem'Hadar bases nearby. This means that even if the Founders did send out a distress call, it would take at least seven hours for any help to arrive. 


TAIN: Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founders' planet, then decloak and begin massive bombardment. 


LOVOK: Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour, and the mantle within five. 


GARAK: That should more than take care of the Founders. 


TAIN: Yes, it should. Unless they have some planetary defences we don't know about. There is one person here who might answer that question. Mister Odo.

WORF: They were once considered mortal enemies of the Klingon Empire. 


ODO: This? A mortal enemy of the Empire? 


WORF: They were an ecological menace, a plague to be wiped out. 


ODO: Wiped out? What are you saying? 


WORF: Hundreds of warriors were sent to track them down throughout the galaxy. An armada obliterated the Tribbles' homeworld. By the end of the twenty third century they had been eradicated. 


ODO: Another glorious chapter of Klingon history. Tell me, do they still sing songs of the great tribble hunt?

WORF: Garak. Just as I thought. 


GARAK: Don't tell me. I overlooked one of the security monitors. 


WORF: You were trying to override the launch controls for the quantum torpedoes. 


GARAK: I was hoping to gain control of the phasers as well. I just hadn't got around to it yet. Don't you see? We have an opportunity here. A chance to end the Dominion threat once and for all. We have enough firepower on this ship to turn that planet into a smoking cinder. Personally, I think that would be a very good thing. 


WORF: And what about Odo, and Captain Sisko and Doctor Bashir? 


GARAK: They'll die. And once the Jem'Hadar ships realise what we're doing, so will we. But what are our lives compared to saving the entire Alpha Quadrant? 


WORF: We are not here to wage war. 


GARAK: I'm not talking about war. What I'm proposing is wiping out every Founder on that planet. Obliterating the Great Link. Come now, Mister Worf, you're a Klingon. Don't tell me you'd object to a little genocide in the name of self-defence? 


WORF: I am a warrior, not a murderer. 


GARAK: What you are is a great disappointment.

Voy

TORRES: I recognise it's signature because, because I know this weapon very well. Chakotay and I got our hands on it when we were fighting the Cardassians. 


KIM: How did it get here? 


CHAKOTAY: Probably the same way we did. 


TORRES: The last time we saw it, it was heading in the same direction in the Badlands where the Caretaker picked us up. 


CHAKOTAY: Originally the Cardassians sent this thing to destroy a Maquis munitions base. We nicknamed it Dreadnought. It's a self-guided tactical missile carrying a charge of a thousand kilos of matter and another thousand of antimatter. 


TUVOK: Enough to destroy a small moon.

CHAKOTAY: Where did that ship come from? 


TUVOK: A quantum singularity has appeared twenty thousand kilometres away. The bio-ship is heading directly toward the planet. 


TORRES: The Borg shields are weakening. We might be able to break free of the tractor beam. 


CHAKOTAY: Can you get a lock on the Captain? 


TUVOK: Not yet 


PARIS: Commander, there are nine more bio-ships coming out of the singularity!

SEVEN: Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix Zero One. But you may call me Seven of Nine. You are proposing a large-scale weapon. We concur.


JANEWAY: I thought you might.


TUVOK: We could encase the nanoprobes in some of our photon torpedoes. In essence, turn them into bio molecular warheads.


SEVEN: Your torpedoes are inadequate. They lack the necessary range and dispursive force.


JANEWAY: Do you have a better idea?


SEVEN: We are Borg.


TUVOK: I take that as a yes.


SEVEN: A multikinetic neutronic mine. Five million isoton yield.


TUVOK: An explosion that size could affect an entire star system.


SEVEN: Correct. The shock wave will disperse the nanoprobes over a radius of five light years.


JANEWAY: That's somewhat larger than I had in mind. You're proposing a weapon of mass destruction.


SEVEN: We are.


JANEWAY: Well, I'm not. You'd be endangering innocent worlds.


SEVEN: It would be efficient.

-=-=-=-=-=-

BORG [OC]: Species 8472 has penetrated Matrix Zero-One-Zero, Grid Nineteen. Eight planets destroyed, three hundred twelve vessels disabled, four million, six hundred twenty-one Borg eliminated. We must seize control of the Alpha Quadrant vessel, and take it into the alien realm. 
SEVEN: We understand.

-=-=-=-=-=-

PARIS: Aye, sir.


CHAKOTAY: Tuvok. Stand by to transport the Borg directly from the Cargo Bay. After they're on the surface, have Security run a sweep of 


KIM: I'm reading power fluctuations in the deflector array.


CHAKOTAY: Cause?


KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.


CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.


KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.


TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity.


CHAKOTAY: Reverse course.


PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free!


CHAKOTAY: Bridge to Cargo Bay Two. Stop what you're doing, or I'll depressurise that deck and blow you out into space. This is your final warning. Do it! 


TUVOK: Decompression cycle complete.


KIM: I still don't have deflector control.


TUVOK: Commander, a single Borg has survived.


PARIS: We're being pulled in!


CHAKOTAY: Report.


TUVOK: We appear to have crossed an interdimensional rift.


PARIS: We've definitely left our galaxy. No stars, no planets.


CHAKOTAY: Let's see.


TORRES: I'm re-calibrating sensors. The entire region is filled with some kind of organic fluid. This isn't space, it's matter.


SEVEN [OC]: Commander Chakotay. We have entered the domain of Species 8472. Report to the Cargo Bay.


CHAKOTAY: Paris, re-pressurise Cargo Bay Two. Tuvok.

TUVOK: Calibration complete. Phase modulator. Detonator circuits? 


KIM: On standby. 


TUVOK: We're ready to load the gravimetric charge. 


KIM: This looks like enough for a fifty isoton explosion. 


TUVOK: Fifty four, to be exact. 


KIM: What are we planning to do, blow up a small planet? 


TUVOK: I don't know. 


KIM: This warhead isn't standard issue. Who designed it, the Captain? 


JANEWAY: Mister Kim, you ask too many questions. Change of plans, Gentlemen. Increase the charge to eighty isotons. 


TUVOK: Aye, Captain. 


JANEWAY: Harry, when you're done here, give B'Elanna a hand with the shuttlecraft. She's reinforcing the hull. 


KIM: Right. Ensign Hickman thinks it's Species eight four seven two. 


TUVOK: Pardon me? 


KIM: That's his theory. There's an opening in fluidic space, and Captain Janeway has to shut it down. Want to know what I think? 


TUVOK: No. 


KIM: I think there's a type six protostar out there, and the Captain's planning on detonating it and opening up a wormhole to the Alpha Quadrant. In theory, it's possible, and because she doesn't want to get our hopes up, she's not telling anybody. 


TUVOK: Then I wouldn't suggest getting your hopes up. 


KIM: Then what do you think it is? 


TUVOK: I do not engage in idle speculation. 


KIM: Come on, Tuvok, aren't you curious? 


TUVOK: Yes, but we have a task at hand. The phase modulator.

TORRES: Too late. The veridium is already reacting with the warp plasma. 


PARIS: That'll cause a warp core breach. 


TORRES: In less than a minute. 


PARIS: Then do what Harry said. Eject the converter. 


TORRES: It's too late. I have to eject the core. 


PARIS: Here? We'll never survive the blast. Neither will anyone else within a million kilometres.


[Irina's ship]


IRINA: They're moving again. 


KIM: Away from the finish line.


[Delta Flyer]


COMPUTER: Warp core breach in thirty seconds. 


TORRES: Where are we going? 


PARIS: A J Class nebula filled with ionised gas. Should contain the explosion. 


TORRES: I can't get the ejection subroutines online. 


COMPUTER: Warp core breach in twenty seconds. 


PARIS: So, what's your answer? 


TORRES: My answer? 


PARIS: Will you marry me? 


COMPUTER: Warp core breach in fifteen seconds. 


TORRES: You're proposing now? 


PARIS: It's as good a time as any. 


TORRES: Subroutines back online.


COMPUTER: Warp core breach in ten seconds, nine, eight. 


TORRES: Clear!


COMPUTER: Four. 


TORRES: Go!


COMPUTER: Three.


[Mess hall]


(Assan zips through the finish line) 


JANEWAY: Damn. 


O'ZAAL: I'm sorry your team didn't win, Captain. 


JANEWAY: Janeway to the Bridge. Report. 


TUVOK: That was a shock wave from an antimatter explosion approximately one point two million kilometres from here. 


JANEWAY: Excuse me.

Movies

LAFORGE: Plasma injectors are on-line. Everything's looking good. I think we're ready.


RIKER: They should be out there right now. We better break the warp barrier in the next five minutes if we're going to get their attention.


LAFORGE: Main cells are charged and ready.


RIKER: Let's do it.


COCHRANE: Engage.


LAFORGE: Warp field is looking good. Structural integrity is holding.


RIKER: Speed, twenty thousand kilometres per second.


COCHRANE: Sweet Jesus!


(Cochrane has spotted the Enterprise in orbit)


RIKER: Relax, Doctor. I'm sure they're just here to give us a send-off.

-=-=-=-=-=-

RIKER: Thirty seconds to warp threshold. ...Approaching light-speed.


COCHRANE: We're at critical velocity.

-=-=-=-=-=-

RIKER: That should be enough. Throttle back. Take us out of warp.


COCHRANE: Is that Earth?


LAFORGE (OC): That's it.


COCHRANE: It's so small.


RIKER: It's about to get a whole lot bigger.

To me it is the low ends that are more questionable. The low ends tend to have some X-Factor involved, and are rarer.

You also have things like TOS: The Changeling show that it matters more how you deliver the energy then how much energy is delivered when it comes to bringing down trek shields.

[watchdog]

Nice list Lucky, reminds me of the old days at Spacebattles. Unfortunately we're talking about Warsies here; their entire response is pretty much to refer back to the ICS. If you point out that there is nothing seen on screen to back up the ICS, then they will circle back to some other part of the ICS as back-up. To many of them, the sight of Slave 1 shattering a few good sized asteroids (that they will insist are all ISD sized or bigger) is more impressive than TDiC laying waste to a sizeable chunk of a planet's surface.
I' have been engaging off and on with a warsie on Deviant art who has been doing exactly that, circular reasoning, no proof on screen, but it's backed up in the ICS...what proves the ICS? Why the ICS does by mentioning the thermal properties etc., etc.
I would imagine the blow-back for the Duchess of Zeon over at SDN for daring to suggest that Trek could ever be remotely on par with Wars was pretty severe, they can’t allow any high-end numbers to upset their delicate balance of only EVER using the low-end numbers for Star Trek.

What I liked about your list was that that it was Star Trek explaining and eventually showing their high-end yields, this is because Trek is science fiction.
Star Wars is not and as such, the numbers were never important to the story, it was only after Dr. Saxton got involved that we get all of these numbers and figures that have no corollary in ANYTHING filmed with the name Star Wars...not that it matters to warsies.

[Khas]

This Warsie. He didn't go by the name "Vader999" by any chance, did he?

[watchdog]

This Warsie. He didn't go by the name "Vader999" by any chance, did he?

I take it you know him then. He started to debate me after I commented on a nice picture and how its unlikely the ICS is useful. I knotice that he will usually respond to any post I make within a few minutes, every time. EVERY TIME! This suggests to me that he's probably a kid with too much free time, or he's unemployed with too much free time.
And of course there's the circular reasoning. Not to mention his response on Starfleet Jedi when I suggested that he try debating here. He dismissed this site as if it was just a mass of unreasoning bias.

[Khas]

Yes, I've had the misfortune of running into him. And he's a complete loon, and not just in the Versus debate. He claims that Darwinian Evolution is a poorly thought-out theory, seems to believe that Glenn Beck is the key to saving America and that believing homosexuality to be a sin isn't homophobia, and seems to like Pokemon a little too much for his own good. I don't mean the show. I mean the Pokemon themselves, if you catch my drift.

[watchdog]

Thankfully I haven't run into any of that, only his love of Wars.
Glenn Beck, that's just sad. Beck is the textbook definition of snake oil salesman, the rest just follows from that I suppose. He seems to be impervious to any contradictory facts but he seems to be winding down now. I responded to him again just last night, I imagine he came back with a response either last night or today as he apparently doesn't have a life.
I will get the last word however.

[watchdog]

Just checked, he did respond, stupidly. He's insisting that at the beginning of ep 3, we see a star destroyer destroy an enemy ship with one shot despite the fact that the battle has clearly been going on for a while at that point. He also insists that proton torpedoes focus all of their explosive power forward despite my having pointed out a couple of times now that Anakins torpedos do not explode with any sort of forward focused explosion when he takes out the trade fed battle ship.

[Praeothmin]

Just checked, he did respond, stupidly. He's insisting that at the beginning of ep 3, we see a star destroyer destroy an enemy ship with one shot despite the fact that the battle has clearly been going on for a while at that point. He also insists that proton torpedoes focus all of their explosive power forward despite my having pointed out a couple of times now that Anakins torpedos do not explode with any sort of forward focused explosion when he takes out the trade fed battle ship.

In other words, he's a standard Warsie, using standard Warsie "arguments"... ;-)

[watchdog]

Of course :D

[Khas]

Well, once you take his other interests into account, he becomes anything but standard. ;)