Should Picard Have Been Retired After BoBW?

[Who is like God arbour]

Can you show where exactly he has made mistakes and why you think that Picard wouldn't have made them too?

As XO crew training is his responsibility, the fact that the crew of the "flagship" of Starfleet couldn't less than a dozen boarders doesn't reflect very well on his leadership skills and abilities as XO or as acting Captain at the time of the crisis.

That leaves out the fact that the shields were down when the Klingon ships approached but I can't remember if comms had been established or not.

It's not routine to have the shields always activated.

Without shields, it couldn't have prevented that the Ferengis beam aboard.

These had have the advantage of surprise and have taken over the bridge too fast for the security to react.

Suddenly they had have high-ranking hostages on the bridge, which is only difficult to storm.

That's always a difficult situation - even for counter-terrorism-special-units like the GSG 9.

What would you have done?

And please don't say that you would have your shields activated in the first place.

There was no reason to activate the shields or to be alerted and have Security on stand by.

[Cpl Kendall]

I draw your attention to this:

SAAVIK

Sir, may I quote General Order

Twelve? 'On the approach of any

vessel, when communications have

not been established - '

They should have had their shields raised if comms had not been established. And if the bridge crew had been taken hostage then the rest of the crew should have either waited them out or tried to take back the bridge. What're the Ferengi going to do? Kill them and lose their only leverage?

*Edit: I'll also point out that a ship with over a thousand people on board should be able to repel less than a dozen boarders even if they are taken by surprise just by sheer numbers alone.

[Mike DiCenso]

Can you show where exactly he has made mistakes and why you think that Picard wouldn't have made them too?

As XO crew training is his responsibility, the fact that the crew of the "flagship" of Starfleet couldn't less than a dozen boarders doesn't reflect very well on his leadership skills and abilities as XO or as acting Captain at the time of the crisis.

That leaves out the fact that the shields were down when the Klingon ships approached but I can't remember if comms had been established or not.

From "Rascals":


RIKER
Maximum shields. Take us out
of orbit, Ensign. Mister Worf,
prepare to return fire...

The crew was attempting to to communicate with a science team they were trying to rescue when the Birds of Prey decloak, and immediately open fire on the Enterprise. There are no attempts at communications between the three ships.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

From "Rascals":


RIKER
Maximum shields. Take us out
of orbit, Ensign. Mister Worf,
prepare to return fire...

The crew was attempting to to communicate with a science team they were trying to rescue when the Birds of Prey decloak, and immediately open fire on the Enterprise. There are no attempts at communications between the three ships.
-Mike

Thank you, my other points stand.

[Mike DiCenso]

At that time, I would have said "yes", Riker can hold his own, especially if he had Commander Shelby as his second-in-command to back him up and keep him on his toes. Remember that many of the issues that you allude to, Kendall, did not occur to the character until relatively late in the original TNG run, and ST:Generations. I suspect that as the ship's captain, the character of Riker would have been given many more opportunities to shine than he actually did in reality.
-Mike

So you don't think we'd see absolute crap like in Rascals where he loses the ship to two outdated Klingon ships and a handful of Ferengi?

Assuming the script even was written in our alternate reality where the character of Picard was written out of the show post-BoBW, then it would follow that Riker takes over Picards place in the story (being relived of command after the transporter accident leaves him in a child's body), and it is Shelby who loses the ship instead.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Assuming the script even was written in our alternate reality where the character of Picard was written out of the show post-BoBW, then it would follow that Riker takes over Picards place in the story (being relived of command after the transporter accident leaves him in a child's body), and it is Shelby who loses the ship instead.
-Mike

Hmm never thought of that.

[Mike DiCenso]

From "Rascals":


RIKER
Maximum shields. Take us out
of orbit, Ensign. Mister Worf,
prepare to return fire...

The crew was attempting to to communicate with a science team they were trying to rescue when the Birds of Prey decloak, and immediately open fire on the Enterprise. There are no attempts at communications between the three ships.
-Mike

Thank you, my other points stand.

Maybe a thousand people on board the E-D, but how many of those are actual crew, versus civilian families? How many of those people (children included), do you expect to try and storm the bridge while the Ferengi kill the bridge crew hostages? Oh yes, and more dialog from the episode:


WORF
Casualties reported on decks
twenty-six and twenty-seven...



WORF
We've lost shields. Heavy
casualties on decks thirty-five
through forty.

DATA
(reacts; off console)
I am detecting Transporter
signatures in three cargo bays.
(beat)
We are being boarded.





MORTA
(touches communicator
on his belt)
This is Morta. We have secured
the Bridge. Begin transporting
all able-bodied adults to the
surface.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Maybe a thousand people on board the E-D, but how many of those are actual crew, versus civilian families? How many of those people (children included), do you expect to try and storm the bridge while the Ferengi kill the bridge crew hostages? Oh yes, and more dialog from the episode:

Even if two thirds of the crew are Starfleet that leaves them plenty of personnel to do the job. I expect every Starfleet crewman to do their job and defend the ship. If Starfleet is incapable of defending their own ships from a pack of pirates then they have no business being out there in the first place.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's just speculation, really. I don't know of any canon reference to how many of the more than one thousand people on the E-D are actual crew, versus family/civilians. Also, the Ferengi didn't just beam onto the bridge, they beamed into other areas of the ship as well.

If anything, it's more an indictment against having families on-board a potentially military vessel, like the E-D, as in the episode, once the civilians and especially the children are captured in a boarding scenario, they become a liability as the crew will likely stop resistance.

We see no such hesitation in ST:Nemesis on-board the apparently civilian-less E-E.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

That's just speculation, really. I don't know of any canon reference to how many of the more than one thousand people on the E-D are actual crew, versus family/civilians. Also, the Ferengi didn't just beam onto the bridge, they beamed into other areas of the ship as well.

If anything, it's more an indictment against having families on-board a potentially military vessel, like the E-D, as in the episode, once the civilians and especially the children are captured in a boarding scenario, they become a liability as the crew will likely stop resistance.

We see no such hesitation in ST:Nemesis on-board the apparently civilian-less E-E.
-Mike

Agreed, I have long held the opinion that there should not be any civvies on what is a military vessel. And of course that is a point of contention in some parts of the VS debate community.

[TheRedFear]

Maybe a thousand people on board the E-D, but how many of those are actual crew, versus civilian families? How many of those people (children included), do you expect to try and storm the bridge while the Ferengi kill the bridge crew hostages? Oh yes, and more dialog from the episode:

Even if two thirds of the crew are Starfleet that leaves them plenty of personnel to do the job. I expect every Starfleet crewman to do their job and defend the ship. If Starfleet is incapable of defending their own ships from a pack of pirates then they have no business being out there in the first place.

There's a fundamental flaw in your argument.

they retook the ship. And did it without a single life lost on either side.

That's a perfect Starfleet Operation. Yeah they got caught with their pants down. De-cloaking ambush tactics tend to catch people with their pants down.

Then many of the able bodied adults were quickly beamed down to the planet. So storming the bridge was no longer an option(not that they would have pissed away the lvies of the hostages by doing so, even if they couldhave. At least, not until they were out of options)

And despite all of that, they STILL retook the ship and did so without anybody getting killed. Just proves that Starfleet training truly is amongst the most elite in the galaxy.

Yes there was a report of heavy casualties, but casualties and fatalities are not the same thing in military jargon. Starfleet military jargon at least.

Edit: The episode of Enterprise, where they get hit with the Romulan Mine illustrates what I mean when I say Casualties and Fatalities are not the same thing. Malcom distinguishes between them, noting that they took 30 something casualties, but no fatalities. So truly, the Enterprise-D crew retook their ship from the pirates, in a span of time that couldn't have been longer than a few hours, and pulled it off with 0 Fatalities on either side

[Who is like God arbour]

I see it like TheRedFear.

Riker has managed to lock out the computers command functions.

The Ferengis couldn't have done anything with the Enterprise.

There was no immediately need for action that would only endanger persons.

And as far as I know, it was never mentioned how many Ferengis have boarded the Enterprise. But I think that we can assume that it wouldn't have been few. After all, they have detected Transporter signatures in three cargo bays.




But that still doesn't answer what you would have done instead of Riker.

You would have been surprised by the Ferengis too.

Maybe you would have tried to fight. But then you would have been surly hit by weapon fire and couldn't have managed to lock out the computers command functions.

The bridge crew would still be hostages and the ferengis would have acces to the Enterprise main computer.

They could have sealed the bridge and administer an anaesthesia in all other decks.

Why would that be better?

[Mike DiCenso]

That's just speculation, really. I don't know of any canon reference to how many of the more than one thousand people on the E-D are actual crew, versus family/civilians. Also, the Ferengi didn't just beam onto the bridge, they beamed into other areas of the ship as well.

If anything, it's more an indictment against having families on-board a potentially military vessel, like the E-D, as in the episode, once the civilians and especially the children are captured in a boarding scenario, they become a liability as the crew will likely stop resistance.

We see no such hesitation in ST:Nemesis on-board the apparently civilian-less E-E.
-Mike

Agreed, I have long held the opinion that there should not be any civvies on what is a military vessel. And of course that is a point of contention in some parts of the VS debate community.

Actually, you have to remember that the original concept for ST:TNG would have (should have) seen the E-D almost completely isolated from any contact with Starfleet and the rest of the Federation as the ship truely went into uncharted territory on a mission of exploration for years on end. Thus the inclusion of families made more sense in that context. Ironically, ST:Voyager went back to that premise, but had no families on-board the ship, and the crew was on an unwilling journey through the Delta quadrent to boot!
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Actually, you have to remember that the original concept for ST:TNG would have (should have) seen the E-D almost completely isolated from any contact with Starfleet and the rest of the Federation as the ship truely went into uncharted territory on a mission of exploration for years on end. Thus the inclusion of families made more sense in that context. Ironically, ST:Voyager went back to that premise, but had no families on-board the ship, and the crew was on an unwilling journey through the Delta quadrent to boot!
-Mike

I would have been fine with that, had that been what we got. And the saucer had it's own warp drive so they could actually get the civvies out of danger for real. I would assume that the Ent-D getting in danger would be rare and they would be using actual diplomacy to face threats as if they get beat up they'd be pooched with no starbase to fall back on.

[mojo]

Oh my god, you should rewatch the first 2 or 3 seasons of TNG

I swear, it was like the Enterprise D was being run by a crew of Children. And not even those smart, daring, precocious children either. No, these were the children you send to bed without any supper in the hopes they'llstarve to death and alleviate you of the burden of caring for them.

They simply were not very bright, and that applies to Riker, Picard, and allllll the rest. I'm just glad I was too young to recognize their idiocy back then, otherwise I never would have stayed with the show long enough for them to finally start being written intelligently in the third or fourth season and beyond.

Not only that, Picard was a dick.

LMFAO