Something Weird about the Galaxy Class

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
Socar
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Post by Socar » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:19 am

But if the saucer section has an emergency warp drive, or uses sustainer coils to maintain a warp field, it probably is not going to be able to outmaneuver or outrun the lighter and more powerful stardrive section.
I wasn't really trying to suggest otherwise, although I just realized that this particular piece of dialogue doesn't really make much sense anyway. Why would they think it would be necessary to sweep back to get the saucer (implying the saucer would immediately begin significant deceleration), when in EaFP, the saucer easily keeps up with the stardrive (and they were going at near-maximum speeds) for some time. It seems like they could have immediately gotten them in a tractor beam.

...

As for the whole idea of the emergency warp drive, I don't see why it would need to wait until the saucer came completely out of warp for them to activate it. Also, if the saucer actually did have its own warp drive, would the stardrive section really be able to hold it in a tractor beam without it being able to change course and break away? It's one thing to actually tow a ship in a tractor beam at warp speeds, but another to actually keep a ship from getting away at warp speeds.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:41 pm

Socar wrote:

I wasn't really trying to suggest otherwise, although I just realized that this particular piece of dialogue doesn't really make much sense anyway. Why would they think it would be necessary to sweep back to get the saucer (implying the saucer would immediately begin significant deceleration), when in EaFP, the saucer easily keeps up with the stardrive (and they were going at near-maximum speeds) for some time. It seems like they could have immediately gotten them in a tractor beam.
Actually, given that either the saucer could have pushed away from the stardrive, or alternatively the stardrive could have slightly decelerated from the saucer; it does not prove one way or the other that the saucer was "easily keeping up with the stardrive".

As for the whole idea of the emergency warp drive, I don't see why it would need to wait until the saucer came completely out of warp for them to activate it. Also, if the saucer actually did have its own warp drive, would the stardrive section really be able to hold it in a tractor beam without it being able to change course and break away? It's one thing to actually tow a ship in a tractor beam at warp speeds, but another to actually keep a ship from getting away at warp speeds.
I don't think anyone stated any such thing. More likely, the emergency warp drive is only good for low to modest warp speeds since the saucer lacks the great energies of the warp core like the stardrive to power it,. and so would fall back eventually to a slower warp speed. Conversely, impulse engine sustainer coils could hold onto enough of the imparted warp field to maintain it at whatever velocity the stardrive imparted to it during seperation.

The holding with a tractor beam issue is dependant on who has the greater power to spare. Obviously the stardrive wins out here since it has a warp core, and the saucer apparently does not.
-Mike

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Post by Socar » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:57 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Actually, given that either the saucer could have pushed away from the stardrive, or alternatively the stardrive could have slightly decelerated from the saucer; it does not prove one way or the other that the saucer was "easily keeping up with the stardrive".
That wasn't really my point. If either of your explanations are indeed accurate, again, as I said before, why would they bother and sweep back for the saucer at all as opposed to just grabbing it immediately after separation?

I don't think anyone stated any such thing.
WILGA was the one that posted the possibility of why the saucer would have to drop out of warp before it could use its own warp, which is what I was responding to.
More likely, the emergency warp drive is only good for low to modest warp speeds since the saucer lacks the great energies of the warp core like the stardrive to power it,. and so would fall back eventually to a slower warp speed. Conversely, impulse engine sustainer coils could hold onto enough of the imparted warp field to maintain it at whatever velocity the stardrive imparted to it during seperation.
Yes, however they stated in the episode that they were expecting it to fall out of warp altogether. I'm just trying to figure out why.
The holding with a tractor beam issue is dependant on who has the greater power to spare. Obviously the stardrive wins out here since it has a warp core, and the saucer apparently does not.
I wasn't aware their tractor beam emitters were capable of handling that much power.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:07 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Actually, given that either the saucer could have pushed away from the stardrive, or alternatively the stardrive could have slightly decelerated from the saucer; it does not prove one way or the other that the saucer was "easily keeping up with the stardrive".
Socar wrote:
That wasn't really my point. If either of your explanations are indeed accurate, again, as I said before, why would they bother and sweep back for the saucer at all as opposed to just grabbing it immediately after separation?
Probably because in this instance the disconnections of the imbilicals might not mean instant restoration of control to the stardrive section? The stardrive continues for a short while as the saucer slows down to a lower warp speed or to sublight.


I don't think anyone stated any such thing.
WILGA was the one that posted the possibility of why the saucer would have to drop out of warp before it could use its own warp, which is what I was responding to.
Okay.
More likely, the emergency warp drive is only good for low to modest warp speeds since the saucer lacks the great energies of the warp core like the stardrive to power it,. and so would fall back eventually to a slower warp speed. Conversely, impulse engine sustainer coils could hold onto enough of the imparted warp field to maintain it at whatever velocity the stardrive imparted to it during seperation.
Yes, however they stated in the episode that they were expecting it to fall out of warp altogether. I'm just trying to figure out why.
That's a good question, and it doesn't make any sense given the saucer section's relatively short journey from interstellar space to orbiting Deneb IV. The only thing I could think of was that the saucer cannot maintain warp at all, except via warp sustainers, and the time is dependant on how fast the ship is going at warp once the seperation occurs. The more powerful the warp field, the longer the saucer can stay at warp.
The holding with a tractor beam issue is dependant on who has the greater power to spare. Obviously the stardrive wins out here since it has a warp core, and the saucer apparently does not.
I wasn't aware their tractor beam emitters were capable of handling that much power.
We've seen that the tractor beam being used push a multi-km asteroid as well as stellar fragment, so why not a much more relatively light saucer section?
-Mike

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Post by Socar » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:36 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Probably because in this instance the disconnections of the imbilicals might not mean instant restoration of control to the stardrive section? The stardrive continues for a short while as the saucer slows down to a lower warp speed or to sublight.
If after separation, the stardrive section can maintain its speed (as opposed to the decelerating saucer), why wouldn’t they have done that in EafP? Wasn’t the whole point of risking the separation at warp 9.8 was that they couldn’t afford to waste any time?

That's a good question, and it doesn't make any sense given the saucer section's relatively short journey from interstellar space to orbiting Deneb IV. The only thing I could think of was that the saucer cannot maintain warp at all, except via warp sustainers, and the time is dependant on how fast the ship is going at warp once the seperation occurs. The more powerful the warp field, the longer the saucer can stay at warp.
Well, in “Brothers”, they were traveling at a velocity of warp 9.3. Would that really make the difference between falling out of warp after two minutes and making it all the way from “interstellar space to orbiting Deneb IV”?
We've seen that the tractor beam being used push a multi-km asteroid as well as stellar fragment, so why not a much more relatively light saucer section?
I admit that this isn’t exactly an area I’m particularly strong in, but wouldn’t it make a significant difference if that asteroid was trying to get away at warp speed?

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:23 am

Socar wrote:As for the whole idea of the emergency warp drive, I don't see why it would need to wait until the saucer came completely out of warp for them to activate it. Also, if the saucer actually did have its own warp drive, would the stardrive section really be able to hold it in a tractor beam without it being able to change course and break away? It's one thing to actually tow a ship in a tractor beam at warp speeds, but another to actually keep a ship from getting away at warp speeds.
Mike DiCenso wrote:I don't think anyone stated any such thing.
WILGA was the one that posted the possibility of why the saucer would have to drop out of warp before it could use its own warp, which is what I was responding to.
I, Who is like God arbour, have wrote:Or because it drops out of warp because its own emergency warp drive isn't activated until the separation is completed and the warp fields of the star drive and the saucer can't overlap anymore?
As I understand it, the saucer drops out of warp, the moment it is leaving the warp field of the star-drive section. As long as it is insider the warp field of the star-drive section, the activation of an own warp field would mean, that both warp fields are overlapping. That would disrupt both warp fields.
As we could see in ENT: Divergence, that not really good for both warp fields, even if they are equal strong.
    • Image
Now imagine how the weak warp field of the emergency warp dive of the saucer is downright overpowered by the strong warp field of the star-drive section. It could be, that it is impossible for the emergency warp drive to establish a warp field under such condition. That means that the saucer has to leave the warp field of the star-drive section bevor it can activate its own warp drive. By that, it would drop out of warp and stays out of warp until it has established its own warp field.

Have we for example ever seen, that a shuttle, a runabout or another little ship has activated its own warp drive inside of the warp field of another ship. ENT: Divergence is the only episode, I can remember, in which something similar has happened. But here, the warp fields have only touched another. They haven't really overlapped.

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Post by Socar » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:50 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:As I understand it, the saucer drops out of warp, the moment it is leaving the warp field of the star-drive section. As long as it is insider the warp field of the star-drive section, the activation of an own warp field would mean, that both warp fields are overlapping. That would disrupt both warp fields.
They stated in the episode that they expected they saucer to stay in warp two minutes after separation. So it sounds like even after they leave the warp field of the stardrive section, it would stay in warp for a bit. If it had just been staying in the warp field of the stardrive section, then they could have just locked on a tractor beam from the beginning instead of sweeping back. Of course, this begs the question of why in Nemesis, when the Enterprise gets its warp drive disabled, it immediately drops out of warp, as opposed to the saucer which can keep going for a certain length of time.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:27 pm

Probably because the warp field was disrupted somehow and there was no way to sustain the field for any length of time once the warp engines were disabled.
-Mike

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:06 am

Socar wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:As I understand it, the saucer drops out of warp, the moment it is leaving the warp field of the star-drive section. As long as it is insider the warp field of the star-drive section, the activation of an own warp field would mean, that both warp fields are overlapping. That would disrupt both warp fields.
They stated in the episode that they expected they saucer to stay in warp two minutes after separation. So it sounds like even after they leave the warp field of the stardrive section, it would stay in warp for a bit. If it had just been staying in the warp field of the stardrive section, then they could have just locked on a tractor beam from the beginning instead of sweeping back. Of course, this begs the question of why in Nemesis, when the Enterprise gets its warp drive disabled, it immediately drops out of warp, as opposed to the saucer which can keep going for a certain length of time.
Or that could have to do with the only slightly different velocities of the star-drive section and the saucer section after the separation.

If both aren't changing their courses, the saucer would need 2 minutes to leave the warp field, the star-drive section is creating.

As long as the saucer doesn't leaves the warp field, the star-drive section is creating, the saucer doesn't slow down. It is even slightly faster than the star-drive section because the saucer has two impuls drives, while the star-drive section has only one impuls drive.
    • Image

Inside the warp field, that is created by the star-dive section, both would be equal fast without additional propulsion. But because the two impuls drives, the saucer is faster than the star-drive section and the distance to the star-drive section inside the warp field gets greater until the saucer is leaving the warp field. Then the saucer drops out of warp and the star-drive section continues its warp fly.

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Post by SailorSaturn13 » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:39 am

If after separation, the stardrive section can maintain its speed (as opposed to the decelerating saucer), why wouldn’t they have done that in EafP? Wasn’t the whole point of risking the separation at warp 9.8 was that they couldn’t afford to waste any time?
The point of maneuver is: saucer flies away at warp, while the stardrive section combats tthe phenomenon. Time was of issue because even at fulll warp, the energy matrix was closing in.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:41 am

That's just it, the saucer was quickly left behind by the stardrive section within seconds of the seperation manuever. How did the saucer continue on so quickly to Deneb IV, if it supposedly had dropped out of warp with the stardrive's warp field being pulled away from it as fast as it did?
-Mike

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:21 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:That's just it, the saucer was quickly left behind by the stardrive section within seconds of the seperation manuever. How did the saucer continue on so quickly to Deneb IV, if it supposedly had dropped out of warp with the stardrive's warp field being pulled away from it as fast as it did?
-Mike
I don't understand, where the problem is. After the separation, the saucer leaves the from the star-drive section created warp field, drops out of warp, starts its own emergency-warp-drive and continues its warp journey self-propelling.

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Post by CrippledVulture » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:41 pm

It seems I've started a thread that went way above my head. I had always just assumed that warp capabilities require warp nacelles, at least where Starfleet vessels are concerned. They don't have any ships with warp drives that lack nacelles.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that a ship lacking nacelles can't go to warp or maintain a warp field. The Galaxy is a big ship, and a warp core isn't that large. Even without the ability to generate its own proper warp field, the saucer must be able to glide or piggyback on the stardrive section's field because otherwise the engineering hull would slam into the underside of the saucer the instant they separated.

Here's my point. A Galaxy-class starship is out exploring. She's loaded with non-combat essential personnel, scientists, family members, and other civilians, as seems to be the case with those ships unless they are part of a combat fleet (one would hope, anyway). An unidentified hostile vessel warps into the sector where the Galaxy is studying a particularly interesting gaseous anomaly. Although the crew of the ship (which we'll call the Hunley) is unaware, they are tampering with the spawning grounds of an alien lifeform which spends its early life in space within this gaseous cloud. Upon reaching maturity, they secrete a hard shell and leave the anomaly, where they are picked up by the older members of their species and begin their lives as bipedal, atmosphere-breathing, humanoids... with forehead ridges.

ANYWAY, violating the spawning grounds is a taboo without words in their culture, and they refuse all attempts at communication. The Hunley raises shields just before the alien vessel starts firing. The first hit all but drains the Hunley's forward shields, it seems to be a type of weapon designed for that very purpose. The Hunley returns fire, but fails to do any noticeable damage.

The captain of the Hunley realizes they're outmatched and decides to make a run for it. They take off at maximum warp. At first, the alien vessel does not pursue, but after a few moments (in which the crew was giving a status report on the breeding grounds to their superiors), they begin to chase the Hunley.

Even at maximum warp, the alien vessel is gaining on the Hunley, concerned for the lives of the civilians on board, the captain decides to go ahead with saucer separation.

Now, if the saucer contains the civilians and no warp drive, it'll coast out at warp for a little while and maybe get away, but their survival is based on the outcome of the battle between the stardrive section and the alien ship (which does not bode well in this case). Now, I have clearly tailored this situation to favor my argument, but if the civilian-occupied half has warp and the battle half does not, all non-essential personnel can be evacuated from the battle section and have a pretty good chance of getting away in most cases. In this case, the aliens are certainly going to be concerned with the battle section since it poses the biggest threat to the spawning grounds (i.e. not running away), but it seems that an alien race who has no idea what is contained on either section would be far more likely to attack the half that is currently engaged in hostile action against them.

I admit that this all falls apart when you consider the possibilities of combat at warp speeds, but let's face the facts, almost every battle in Star Trek takes place at impulse speed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that against odds like this, the way the galaxy class is constructed, everybody dies and they might as well face the threat with a complete Galaxy class starship, but if the civvies can flee at warp, then they have at least a fighting chance of getting away.

But I hope you all enjoyed the discussion I inadvertently started about stuff I don't know much about.

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Post by TheRedFear » Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:51 am

CrippledVulture wrote:It seems I've started a thread that went way above my head. I had always just assumed that warp capabilities require warp nacelles, at least where Starfleet vessels are concerned. They don't have any ships with warp drives that lack nacelles.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that a ship lacking nacelles can't go to warp or maintain a warp field. The Galaxy is a big ship, and a warp core isn't that large. Even without the ability to generate its own proper warp field, the saucer must be able to glide or piggyback on the stardrive section's field because otherwise the engineering hull would slam into the underside of the saucer the instant they separated.

Here's my point. A Galaxy-class starship is out exploring. She's loaded with non-combat essential personnel, scientists, family members, and other civilians, as seems to be the case with those ships unless they are part of a combat fleet (one would hope, anyway). An unidentified hostile vessel warps into the sector where the Galaxy is studying a particularly interesting gaseous anomaly. Although the crew of the ship (which we'll call the Hunley) is unaware, they are tampering with the spawning grounds of an alien lifeform which spends its early life in space within this gaseous cloud. Upon reaching maturity, they secrete a hard shell and leave the anomaly, where they are picked up by the older members of their species and begin their lives as bipedal, atmosphere-breathing, humanoids... with forehead ridges.

ANYWAY, violating the spawning grounds is a taboo without words in their culture, and they refuse all attempts at communication. The Hunley raises shields just before the alien vessel starts firing. The first hit all but drains the Hunley's forward shields, it seems to be a type of weapon designed for that very purpose. The Hunley returns fire, but fails to do any noticeable damage.

The captain of the Hunley realizes they're outmatched and decides to make a run for it. They take off at maximum warp. At first, the alien vessel does not pursue, but after a few moments (in which the crew was giving a status report on the breeding grounds to their superiors), they begin to chase the Hunley.

Even at maximum warp, the alien vessel is gaining on the Hunley, concerned for the lives of the civilians on board, the captain decides to go ahead with saucer separation.

Now, if the saucer contains the civilians and no warp drive, it'll coast out at warp for a little while and maybe get away, but their survival is based on the outcome of the battle between the stardrive section and the alien ship (which does not bode well in this case). Now, I have clearly tailored this situation to favor my argument, but if the civilian-occupied half has warp and the battle half does not, all non-essential personnel can be evacuated from the battle section and have a pretty good chance of getting away in most cases. In this case, the aliens are certainly going to be concerned with the battle section since it poses the biggest threat to the spawning grounds (i.e. not running away), but it seems that an alien race who has no idea what is contained on either section would be far more likely to attack the half that is currently engaged in hostile action against them.

I admit that this all falls apart when you consider the possibilities of combat at warp speeds, but let's face the facts, almost every battle in Star Trek takes place at impulse speed. I guess what I'm trying to say is that against odds like this, the way the galaxy class is constructed, everybody dies and they might as well face the threat with a complete Galaxy class starship, but if the civvies can flee at warp, then they have at least a fighting chance of getting away.

But I hope you all enjoyed the discussion I inadvertently started about stuff I don't know much about.
Allow me to go Vulcan for a moment here, and point out that your logic is flawed.

In your scenario, the Alien organism simply ignores the Hunley's battle section. It just spent several minutes moving away from the spawning ground at maximum warp. At the impulse speeds it is now restricted to, it would take forever for the Hunley's battle section to return to the spawning ground.

So, the Alien organism completely ignores the battle section, overtakes the civilians, destroys them, then comes back around and warp-strafes the Hunley's battle section, desroying them too.

With Warp drive, the Hunley's battle section can engage the hostile threat. Ram it if necessary, or otherwise buy time enough for the saucer section to find a place to hide

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Post by CrippledVulture » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:10 pm

Do you agree, at least, that for reasons unknown almost every battle in the entirety of Star Trek takes place at impulse, not warp?

There exists the possibility of the enemy taking advantage of the battle section's lack of a warp drive and warp-strafing or ignoring it entirely to pursue the fleeing civilian-occupied section. I admit this. However, without a warp drive, the warpless saucer section of the actual Galaxy class is not going to be hiding anywhere. There are many instances of Starfleet vessels tracking ships accurately with less information and a longer delay than there would be in this scenario. One would expect Starfleet to design ships that take their own capabilities into consideration.

It just seems to me that, in the face of really bad odds, the civilians have the best chance of survival if they stay with the warp drive. Otherwise, you might as well meet the threat with a complete starship and hope for the best.

An interesting side note:
http://www.robsacc.nl/_forgottentrek/tng_1.php

I direct your attention to the drawing depicting a battle section as part of the saucer, without warp nacelles.

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