Questions and answers about "diesel" fusion

[Cpl Kendall]

I said movie canon universe level. Hypermatter never shows up anywhere at the movie canon level. So, my question stands: what is it?

Apperently you haven't been paying attention. C canon materials that make it into G canon are considered G canon. The AOTC ICS states that several vessels are powered by hypermatter reactors, those vessels are in the movies. Guess what that means? It means hypermatter is G canon.

[Cpl Kendall]

JMS isn't doing anything that is worse than what Dr. Curtis Saxton or anyone else who has made a hobby of trying to rationalize SW technology. His evidence is based on the highest forms of canon.
-Mike

No it's not comparable. Dr Saxtons work became part of the canon and was approved by Lucasarts/Film (whatever their bloody called). JMSpock's theory has no weight in Canon and no basis in the SW universe because and get this: the scene he's basing it on is not present in the movies.

[GStone]

I said movie canon universe level. Hypermatter never shows up anywhere at the movie canon level. So, my question stands: what is it?

Apperently you haven't been paying attention. C canon materials that make it into G canon are considered G canon. The AOTC ICS states that several vessels are powered by hypermatter reactors, those vessels are in the movies. Guess what that means? It means hypermatter is G canon.

Not movie+EU universe canon. None of the ICSes are in the movie universe canon.

JMS isn't doing anything that is worse than what Dr. Curtis Saxton or anyone else who has made a hobby of trying to rationalize SW technology. His evidence is based on the highest forms of canon.
-Mike

No it's not comparable. Dr Saxtons work became part of the canon and was approved by Lucasarts/Film (whatever their bloody called). JMSpock's theory has no weight in Canon and no basis in the SW universe because and get this: the scene he's basing it on is not present in the movies.

His baryonic-to-tachyonic matter conversion for hyperdrives is one such example of Saxton's (despite the fact it's contrary to what we see and hear in ep 4 and 6). None of his work in the technical commentaries is canon. Not movie universe canon, not movie+EU universe canon. Only his work on the ICSes is movie+EU universe canon. The technical commentaries stuff was done on his own time, which is part of the reason why he got the job to work on the ICSes to begin with.

And Saxton's taychionic matter conversion theory exists totally nowhere in even the EU, let alone the movie universe canon.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I said movie canon universe level. Hypermatter never shows up anywhere at the movie canon level. So, my question stands: what is it?

Apperently you haven't been paying attention. C canon materials that make it into G canon are considered G canon. The AOTC ICS states that several vessels are powered by hypermatter reactors, those vessels are in the movies. Guess what that means? It means hypermatter is G canon.

On the logical point, that reasoning is totally flawed.
If the hypermatter is not identified as such in the film, any EU can call it hypermatter of rancor turd, if itl remains unidentified on the film level, any of these EU identifications will purely remain C level until they're precisely reused in G level.
Which is not the case.

Now, I'm still open to considering things differently, but I needed to correct that error in logic.

[Mr. Oragahn]

And Saxton's taychionic matter conversion theory exists totally nowhere in even the EU, let alone the movie universe canon.

The conversion theory, no, but the old ICS has references about hyperdrives ejecting tachyonic matter.
That's still nowhere close enough to entirely warrant Saxton's theory in that, but it shows that the EU, which doesn't really know what hyperspace is in fact, did have a note or two about tachyons.

[Who is like God arbour]

It's interessting, how the position of Cpl Kendall has changed.

I'm honest enough to admit, that I understand no word from Jedi Master Spocks explanations. It may have to do with my lacking english knowledge.

But Cpl Kendall first position was, that the DIESEL FUSION theory was absurd, somthing good for a chuckle. Something that, according to Darth Servo, to gets closer and closer to scooter level delusions.

Now, he doesn't attack the merit of the theory anymore, but its foundation in canon.

Does that mean, that he admits now, that the theory of DIESEL FUSION is possible, but now object, that it is not supported by canon?

And of course, Cpl Kendall claims now, that Jedi Master Spock is backpedeling from the claims of his site, which actually specify real diesel. According to Cpl Kendall, Jedi Master Spock goes backwards any faster he'll travel through time.

But he does not provide any evidence for that claim. Why does he not show, where Jedi Master Spock has specified real diesel?

[Kazeite]

It's also interesting to note your beatiful double standards, Kendall :)

What double standards, you ask? Well, if "C canon materials that make it into G canon are considered G canon", then clearly, Karen Traviss' books must be considered G canon merely because the movies also feature clones and clone equipment!

You can't have it both ways, Kendall. Either we accept everything blindly because it was approved by Lucasfilm (that includes both Saxton and Traviss), or we accept that SW authors can make mistakes (that includes both Traviss and Saxton).

[Cpl Kendall]

It's interessting, how the position of Cpl Kendall has changed.

I'm honest enough to admit, that I understand no word from Jedi Master Spocks explanations. It may have to do with my lacking english knowledge.

But Cpl Kendall first position was, that the DIESEL FUSION theory was absurd, somthing good for a chuckle. Something that, according to Darth Servo, to gets closer and closer to scooter level delusions.

Now, he doesn't attack the merit of the theory anymore, but its foundation in canon.

Does that mean, that he admits now, that the theory of DIESEL FUSION is possible, but now object, that it is not supported by canon?

And of course, Cpl Kendall claims now, that Jedi Master Spock is backpedeling from the claims of his site, which actually specify real diesel. According to Cpl Kendall, Jedi Master Spock goes backwards any faster he'll travel through time.

But he does not provide any evidence for that claim. Why does he not show, where Jedi Master Spock has specified real diesel?

No you obtuse little man, I'm simply taking another route. As for JMSpock saying it was diesel, read the site attached to this fucking forum:

Of particular interest is the matchup between the power plants of Imperial and Federation ships. Although little can be said directly about the power outputs of the two, their energy reserves can be very well analyzed. Federation vessels use deuterium-fueled impulse engines (100-115 TJ/L, 630-740 TJ/kg) and deuterium/antideuterium fueled warp engines (14,800 TJ/L, 90,000 TJ/kg), while Imperial vessels use diesel-fueled fusion engines (70-230 TJ/L, 100-280 TJ/kg). For various reasons, the high end of this range is likely for Imperial vessels, while the low end is likely for impulse vessels.

It is not too unlikely, therefore, that an Imperial vessel will get over twice times as much energy per liter of fuel as an equivalent impulse-fueled Federation vessel; however, a warp powered vessel with the equivalent volume available for fuel and equipment will have 64-210 times the energy reserve. In both cases, the Federation vessel enjoys an advantage in fuel mass. There remains a certain tactical disadvantage for the Federation vessels in that antimatter will spontaneously explode far more violently than diesel fuel, given an opportunity; however, the strategic advantage of being able to field smaller ships of greater power and/or endurance is substantial.

From here.

Seriously read the goddam site.

[Cpl Kendall]

It's also interesting to note your beatiful double standards, Kendall :)

What double standards, you ask? Well, if "C canon materials that make it into G canon are considered G canon", then clearly, Karen Traviss' books must be considered G canon merely because the movies also feature clones and clone equipment!

You can't have it both ways, Kendall. Either we accept everything blindly because it was approved by Lucasfilm (that includes both Saxton and Traviss), or we accept that SW authors can make mistakes (that includes both Traviss and Saxton).

Of course the clone commandos are G canon, did you not watch AOTC and note that they mentioned them?

[Roondar]

I said movie canon universe level. Hypermatter never shows up anywhere at the movie canon level. So, my question stands: what is it?

Apperently you haven't been paying attention. C canon materials that make it into G canon are considered G canon. The AOTC ICS states that several vessels are powered by hypermatter reactors, those vessels are in the movies. Guess what that means? It means hypermatter is G canon.

Hmm, there was that recent book on the Deathstar that pretty much established that during the clone wars a lot of ships would not have had Hypermatter reactors and that even some ISD's where not equipped with them (technically, if we take the statements quoted here on the issue literally most probably didn't - the book also goes to great lengths (well the quoted parts anyway) on making hypermatter reactors sound like a new, experimental and relatively dangerous technology).

Assuming that stance is correct, what where all the other vessels using? And how can we rationalise this in the greater picture (i.e. non-hypermatter reactors (of any type in ST/SW) are stated by many in the versus debates to be vastly inferior in power generation capability compared to hypermatter reactors)?

How is that dealt with in the GL canon? Which bit goes where?

[Kazeite]

Of course the clone commandos are G canon, did you not watch AOTC and note that they mentioned them?

Therefore, as per your reasoning, C-canon works describing clones are G-canon as well. Just like C-canon work describing vessels which appear in G-canon movie are canon.

And yet, Karen Traviss' works are rejected by your esteemed coleagues... Well, do you, personally, agree with her books, including, but not limited to, 3 milion clones figure?

But wait, it's get better! As per this very same reasoning, most of EU is G-canon, because it describes characters and stuff from the movies! Now isn't that wonderful? ;)

[Jedi Master Spock]

And - volumetrically speaking - assuming that all of them use "heavy" diesel rather than one of the various alternate possible fuels is quite generous on the whole, not to mention a best fit for all the evidence.

So you base this on a scene that is not admissable evidence due to it not being in the film and there is no mention or hint of this mystery hydrocarbon in any of the other movies.

Incorrect. The information the deleted scene gives about fuel is G canon - both per stated policy on deleted scenes by Chee, IIRC (who has the link to the quote?), as well its inclusion in the official published screenplay - even if Obi-Wan and Anakin wading through it did not happen in the actual continuity.

The scene's contents are also referenced in the C canon, if you are interested. The fact that the Invisible Hand's fuel was transparent, relatively low density, and volatile on the chemical level is one that you cannot dispute using any rational canon policy.

However, it is only one contributing piece of evidence from the G canon. I believe - it has been a couple years now - I actually initially formulated this theory prior to learning of the deleted scene in question.

That deleted scene, of course, is very strongly suggestive.

Included in this list are:

• The use of a portable fusion reactor in TESB.
• The use of fusion reactors in "everything from podracers to starships" in ROTS.
• The use of volatile flammable fuel in small craft, ranging from AT-STs in ROTJ, landspeeders in TESB, podracers in TPM, et cetera, all of which explode in the classic (if not wholly realistic) fashion of gasoline vehicles on the big screen, in great fiery smoky orange blasts.
• The piping of apparently liquid fuel into fighters seen in ROTS.
• The relatively slow, detailed destruction of the Trade Federation battleship in TPM, and the similarly low-energy destruction of sphereships in AOTC, warships of several varieties in ROTS and in ROTJ of every ship not shot by a Death Star. All of these fall within a similar order of magnitude.
• Various events in all six movies which require SW ships to have substantially more energy available to them than seen in the above destructions.
• The dramatically more energetic destruction of the Death Star.

Taken as a set, this list of events (plus, of course, the G canon information relating to the Invisible Hand specifically) outline a very real puzzle, and one that the EU does little to address - let alone consistently, coherently, and with respect for real physics.

A few choice pieces of the EU have all the apparent scientific merit of the steel-consuming (and water-quenched) fusion reactor seen in Spiderman 2.

Guess what that means? It means hypermatter is G canon.

No, it does not. The use of hypermatter reactors for those vessels is a piece of information that appears to originate with the authors of those EU works, and is accordingly not on the "G" level.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I'm noticing we're getting some very heated debate on what is G and what is C canon. I'll encourage both sides to please remain polite, and specifically warn Cpl Kendall that outright flames are against the rules, and Kazeite that it's not good to bait people.

[Kazeite]

All right. I'm sorry.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's not like the EU has not its own take at fuel.

Remember Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II.
You had to get inside a heavy cargo ship which was refueling at Baron's Head, on Sulon, the homeworld of Kyle Katarn.

Wait.

Stuff on that ship.

Sulon Star

The Sulon Star was a large freighter of an unknown class that had been converted by the droid 8t88 for his own use. In addition to its spacious cargo holds, the vessel boasted a docking bay that was big enough to accommodate four shuttles. The Star saw significant use during the droid's alliance with the Dark Jedi led by Jerec

While the ship was docked on Ruusan, whether by accident or design, Jerec knocked the Rebel agent and Jedi Knight Kyle Katarn into the ship's hold after he refused to give in to the dark side and strike down his partner, Jan Ors. The vessel itself, which had received the full blast of Jerec's Force power, began to lose its hold on the docking station where it was moored. The supports gave way, and the ship, whose systems had been knocked offline, began to plummet into a deep canyon.

Frantically searching the falling ship, eventually Kyle found his own vessel, the Moldy Crow, which had been tethered to the craft's underside. Katarn managed to board his ship and escape the Sulon Star just before it smashed into the canyon floor. However, the shockwave from the explosion caused the Crow to crash as well.

Okay, what that page omits is that you entered the ship's fuel tanks.
The fuel was a brown semi translucent liquid, which you better not had to fire at.