Questions and answers about "diesel" fusion

[Mr. Oragahn]

Are deleted scenes considered G-level?

Yes, unless they conflict with something else seen in the films or if the reasoning behind deleting the scene keeps it from being continuity.

Jeebus, there's a fucked up sentence.

Indeed. :D

That said, it indicates two things.

First, if the material from the deleted scene is in contradiction with the films, it's invalid. Of course, I suppose that it's only invalidated to a degree. I don't think everything goes into the dustbin just because of a single mini glitch.

Secondly, it means that ... err... I suppose it means that if it was deleted because the director thhought it didn't bode well with continuity, it's again to be dismissed. That said, that's quite a complicated way to say something which doesn't seem that different from the first bit, safe that it's seen from an out of universe perspective.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Then I suggest you put up your actual theory in full. The current statements invite many different interpretations.

What specifically do you need further clarification on?

I'd like you to post your calculations in full showing how you reached your conclusions.

What constitutes "in full" varies greatly according to target audience.

For example, for the grade school student, showing the fraction of mass that is deuterium:

Seeing that denser hydrocarbons have a higher percent hydrogen by mass is trivially simple; since most have an empirical formula closely approaching CH2, with C having a mass of 12 and H having a mass of 2, they are (1+1)/(12+1+1)=0.14, or 14%, hydrogen by mass; if we replace the regular hydrogen with deuterium, we replace all the 1s with 2s (the mass of deuterium) and get (2+2)/(12+2+2)=0.25, or 25%, deuterium by mass.

In heavy water, whose formula is H2O, we have oxygen, which has an atomic mass of 16. So, we normally have (1+1)/(1+1+16)=0.11, or 11%, hydrogen by mass; replacing all the hydrogen with deuterium, as in the heavier form of heavy water, we again replace the 1s with 2s and have (2+2)/(2+2+16)=0.20, or 20%, deuterium by mass.

That's a lot to spell out, and most readers I expect to be able to do (or look up how to do) those simple calculations by themselves, for example:

"A heavy hydrocarbon can be up to 25% deuterium by mass, while heavy water is only up to 20% deuterium by mass."

Then, I might go on:

"Since a heavy hydrocarbon will be 80+% of the density of heavy water, this means that you get more hydrogen per liter as well as per kilogram."

Granted, the margin of superiority is slight, but - as I do explain on my website:

A "heavy" decane would have 0.225 grams of deuterium per milliliter, while being lighter than heavy water, less corrosive, more compressible under sudden shock; it doesn't expand when it freezes, bursting pipes and tanks; it has over twice the temperature range that it stays liquid in. All these features make hydrocarbons a logical form to store hydrogen in.

As an added bonus, if your fusion engine is a robust model that can fuse more than just hydrogen, the carbon part of hydrocarbons returns more energy than the oxygen part of heavy water. The only disadvantage to using hydrocarbons as fuel for fusion engines is the mass.

(The mass being a disadvantage compared with pure hydrogen, rather than water; perhaps that is ambiguous.)

So what specifically do you think needs more detail?

[Jedi Master Spock]

The scene you are basing this on is deleted, it's not in the movie. The policy states that the movies are G canon, a deleted scene by definiation is not in the movie.

It's been a while since I read the ep 3 novel, but I believe the deleted movie scene was in the novel. I believe that is where the reference is of Ben telling Anakin not to hit the fuel lines or something. I don't quite remember.

I'm not sure if it's in the novel or not, but it is in the authorized screenplay, which (like the novel) is also part of the "movie canon," as it is called.

[Cpl Kendall]

Just post everything from start to finish that you used. Don't worry about it being to complicated.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Just post everything from start to finish that you used. Don't worry about it being to complicated.

As I used it? The problem you have with this, I feel, is not the complexity; the problem is the presentation. What is perfectly obvious and intuitive to me is not necessarily so for you.

But, since you asked, here's basically the whole thought process from start to finish:

Description:
Trying to match the description of what's seen.

First, I looked at the catalog of puzzling evidence, and thought to myself: Wait a minute. Clear, colorless, aromatic, and flammable fuel - this is starting to resemble gasoline or some other kind of hydrocarbon being fed into a fusion engine.

Second, I check my intuition by reviewing what other clear liquid hydrogen-loaded flammable substances with characteristic smells are available. Ammonia, for example, is flammable, colorless, and clear; unfortunately, it has a very low boiling point at standard pressure, and is thus a poor candidate. Water is very hydrogen-rich, but is not particularly flammable or pungent under most circumstances.

Derivation:
Figuring out why this might make sense.

Given an arbitrarily effective fusion furnace, what's your best fuel? In order to store hydrogen compactly and in liquid chemically stable fashion, we're basically dealing with C-H-O-N compounds of various flavors. For the reasons of density described above, saturated hydrocarbons are optimal.

Low end figures I plug and chug by putting the kg hydrogen per kg and liter, subtracting off the mass of the helium it would be fused to, and multiplying by the square of lightspeed... i.e., a very simple application of COE that takes about five minutes with a table of isotopic masses and an open spreadsheet or calculator. For the high end, I assume the case of magically fusing everything to iron-56 - i.e., 28 deuterium atoms, 14/3 carbon 12s, 4 nitrogen 14s, et cetera. I compare these figures.

(Online table of isotopic masses for your convenience in the event you don't have it in a nearby handbook. Note that C-12 is 12.000... by definition, not coincidence. Basically speaking, in fusion of hydrogen, you can get rid of almost 1% of the mass if you fuse it all the way down to iron, and in fusion of carbon to iron, you can get rid of about 0.1%, but I already knew that.)

Methane has the most hydrogen per unit weight (CH4), but requires high pressure or low temperature to make liquid. As you go up the alkanes, you get better milage by volume, and worse by weight (heavy methane is 40%, heavy decane is 27%). It doesn't get better as you start dealing with esters, alkenes, or adding nitrogen and oxygen into the mix. Packing as much hydrogen in as possible is basically what makes a good chemical fuel, too.

At that point, it's perfectly clear to me what's going on.

[GStone]

A good amount of specifics and some number of generalities. I like it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Ok, I've managed to see the deleted scene in question. The CGI is not polished, but it's good enough. It starts with Shaak Ti being killed while she's defeated, kneeling on the floor, in front of Grievous, him standing behind her.

He kills the Jedi female. Obi-Wan and Anakin talk, and understand, after a couple of hidden gestures, that they have to get out. They switch their lightsabres and cut through the floor, ending in a long fuel tunnel, as long as the tunnel above them I believe.

The fluid is, for all we can know, transparent like water. Energy arcs and blasters can ignite it, yet the liquid in question is far from being compressed.

Obi-Wan and Anakin walk through the fuel tunnel, and it's barely filled.

Grievous forbids the droids from shooting. He wants things sealed in case of a blast, but I can't figure all of what he's saying.

Later on, the tunnel if being flooded. Superbattledroids are also down inside the tunnel, while the two Jedi try to get out by going up through tight tunnels.

When they're out, back on the upper level, but in another corridor, Anakin seals the door shut with his lightsabre. Obi-Wan says it won't be enough. The level of fuel rises, and reaches the top of what looks like energy rods (don't even ask what those things are doing there).
The contact with the energy arc ingites the fuel, but fails to blow the shaft's sealed door, though it's two hairs away from blowing it, as the door looks like it's been punched by a giant fist.

We see, from space, that it critically damages the Invisible Hand, by breaching its belly, behing the ventral fin.

THe magnitude of the internal explosion is, for something limited like that, in the same ballpark as all capital ships explosion we have seen thus far.

[GStone]

The rods might be part of the ignition system.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The rods might be part of the ignition system.

It would have to, otherwise it would make even less sense. There were racks of pairs of rods aligned all along the tunnel (think of the lower level of an old galleon, filled with fuel, as far as the tunnel's shape is concerned).

The *good* sign is that the explosion occured very close to the stern, which clearly helps to associate the system to the reactor(s) in a way or another.
However, if this is the ignition system, it sucks, cause it severely damaged the ship.

My problem with hypermatter is how the hell can this thing be stored?
Eventually, I could understand that it cannot, and what hypermatter reactors do is open a sort of hyperspace bubble right inside the reactor, with the help of other fuel for fusion, to kick the reaction, but how the hell do you store a type of matter which, while tryign to keep it the more stable, would actually become infinitely faster than light.
It would require just too much energy to bring the tachyons to a spped close to c, to slow the stuff down.

[GStone]

An internal hyperspace field. It warps space around a spherical/toroidal area and the stuff keeps spinning around that area over and over again.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't think the scene in question is valid at all, though.

A look at the DVD would settle this, but when the rear part of the IH goes off, we get a glimpe of its underneath, and there's no damage behind the ventral fin.

It's not canon.

Which is a good thing for the EU, considering that Shaak Ti is reported alive on Coruscant and appears later on.

[Jedi Master Spock]

While the scene may not have actually happened, the facts it shows about the Invisible Hand remain G canon under most descriptive policies, especially those requiring that material be directly contradicted - coming as they do from the G canon.

That there was actually a fuel explosion aboard the Invisible Hand is subject to contradiction by the condition of the ship (although it is a small VFX detail); that the fuel was clear, colorless, not particularly dense, and explosive under the right circumstances (e.g., ignited by a lightsaber) is not contradicted by anything. I believe that description is actually echoed in EU materials, actually, confirming its noncontradicted status - and, of course, the bulk of the evidence leading to the diesel fusion theory remains regardless of whether or not we include this scene.

[Mr. Oragahn]

While the scene may not have actually happened, the facts it shows about the Invisible Hand remain G canon under most descriptive policies, especially those requiring that material be directly contradicted - coming as they do from the G canon.

That there was actually a fuel explosion aboard the Invisible Hand is subject to contradiction by the condition of the ship (although it is a small VFX detail); that the fuel was clear, colorless, not particularly dense, and explosive under the right circumstances (e.g., ignited by a lightsaber) is not contradicted by anything. I believe that description is actually echoed in EU materials, actually, confirming its noncontradicted status - and, of course, the bulk of the evidence leading to the diesel fusion theory remains regardless of whether or not we include this scene.

Exceptionally, I think this is a case where a whole source has to be treated as a whole.
Chee, for example, refers to a cutscene, without saying that elements have to be sorted.
How far do you go until you consider the scene starts to work, and doesn't work anymore?

Starts: After they go down the hole they made? Later on, to be sure there's no reference to any hole made in the floor?
When the Jedi walk through that fuel?

Stops: When battledroids go down into the fuel as well? When the Jedi go up the ladder? When Anakin seals the hatch?

[Socar]

I'm a little torn on the issue. One the one hand, Mr. Oragahn could very well be right, that for it to be canon the entire sequence has to fit in continuity. On the other, it just doesn't seem right that the details shown about the Invisible Hand must be thrown out simply because Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't end up going down there. Seems like that it would be there anyway. And based on Chee's statement, the only reason why something wouldn't be canon is if the elements itself caused it not to fit in continuity. So while that entire escape scene from Grevious would not have happened, what was actually there in the ship might still be canon.

I don't really think it's a matter of determining how far you go until a scene works or doesn't work, it's just which elements were contradicted and which weren't.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm a little torn on the issue. One the one hand, Mr. Oragahn could very well be right, that for it to be canon the entire sequence has to fit in continuity. On the other, it just doesn't seem right that the details shown about the Invisible Hand must be thrown out simply because Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't end up going down there. Seems like that it would be there anyway. And based on Chee's statement, the only reason why something wouldn't be canon is if the elements itself caused it not to fit in continuity. So while that entire escape scene from Grevious would not have happened, what was actually there in the ship might still be canon.

I don't really think it's a matter of determining how far you go until a scene works or doesn't work, it's just which elements were contradicted and which weren't.

The elements of that ship would be canon only because of the scene in question.
As I read Chee's words, the whole scene is ditched, and there's no sorting to be made.
That, of course, if you use the Holocron policy, but since there are references to EU stuff here, it should be done that way for the moment.