Worf vs an unarmed jedi knight?

[Ted C]

Not to be an ass, but all the examples you point out involve the Sith, safe for the cases were Jedi used their powers against droids (battledroids, battle-3PO).

How is this a problem?

True, Jedi don't routinely use the Force as a deadly weapon because they're trained not to. We know that they could, though, because there's no significant difference in power between the light side and the dark side, the difference is just how it's accessed.

Jedi routinely endure physical assaults that would easily kill an ordinary human being. Numerous long falls are the most obvious examples, but as Opecoiler pointed out, Obi-Wan was able to take punches that would dent metal, and the clones poured fire into every Jedi they attacked to make sure of a kill. Darth Vader blocked blaster shots with his hand in ESB, and even Luke took only minor damage from a shot that should have blown his hand off (ROTJ).

[GStone]

The long falls could have been buffered by Force pushing in that direction; Grevous could have been toying with Ben; the clone troopers know that jedi can block blaster bolts with a lightsabre, so they could have been trying to overwhelm them and Like and Vader were shot in their robo-hands.

[Ted C]

The long falls could have been buffered by Force pushing in that direction; Grevous could have been toying with Ben; the clone troopers know that jedi can block blaster bolts with a lightsabre, so they could have been trying to overwhelm them and Like and Vader were shot in their robo-hands.

Force-pushing against the ground should noticeably reduce the Jedi's acceleration due to gravity; Grievous has no reason to toy with someone as dangerous as a Jedi; and Clones continued to fire into the bodies of Jedi well after they were down.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Not to be an ass, but all the examples you point out involve the Sith, safe for the cases were Jedi used their powers against droids (battledroids, battle-3PO).

How is this a problem?

As you point out, the Sith are far more prone to use the Force agressively against living beings.
The Jedi, all spoiled hypocrits that they are, will largely use technology instead, and only deflect stuff, eventually back at the enemy.

True, Jedi don't routinely use the Force as a deadly weapon because they're trained not to. We know that they could, though, because there's no significant difference in power between the light side and the dark side, the difference is just how it's accessed.

But they're not trained to, and the average Jedi Knight is likely not remotely prone to doubt the teaching of a tightly enforced scholastic dogma called for failure, as we saw.

Jedi routinely endure physical assaults that would easily kill an ordinary human being. Numerous long falls are the most obvious examples, but as Opecoiler pointed out, Obi-Wan was able to take punches that would dent metal, and the clones poured fire into every Jedi they attacked to make sure of a kill. Darth Vader blocked blaster shots with his hand in ESB, and even Luke took only minor damage from a shot that should have blown his hand off (ROTJ).

Yes, lot's of good stuff. On the same hand, I notice Obi-Wan's total lack of use of Force powers against even semi sentient voracious creatures.
The use of Force powers is inconsistent at best, and the most interesting uses came from non average Jedi.
Even Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't break off their chains until they had their lightsabre. Even Jango could heatbutt Obi-Wan (ok, he went through some severe crap that would have killed any normal human), but it shows that even with super powers and a convenient precog, even the most powerful Jedi's defenses are open to blows.

That does not mean Worf would win. Again, I think any cornered Jedi will probably try some last daring Force movement before loosing any chance to win. The Klingon, I dunno, he's some kind of brute or so, tough, but not so much, and the fact remains that most Jedi are trained for combat as well.

I gave my vote to the Jedi since a while, but it's not a 100% against 0%, far from it.
I think certain warsies have their minds a bit too polluted by the wank applied to Jedi in the EU, and forget about the less daunting feats seen in the films, which matter more in the end.

[Ted C]

As you point out, the Sith are far more prone to use the Force agressively against living beings.
The Jedi, all spoiled hypocrits that they are, will largely use technology instead, and only deflect stuff, eventually back at the enemy.

Yes, Jedi will use ordinary weapons by preference, but that doesn't actually stop them from using the Force if necessary. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin (as a Padawan) all used the Force against living beings (Palpatine, Grievous, Geonosians, and each other in the case of Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS) when needed. There's obviously a difference between not wanting to use the Force as a weapon and not being able to do so.

But they're not trained to, and the average Jedi Knight is likely not remotely prone to doubt the teaching of a tightly enforced scholastic dogma called for failure, as we saw.

They're trained in the "how", as we see whenever Jedi use the Force against droids. As a matter of policy, however, they seem to avoid it.

Jedi routinely endure physical assaults that would easily kill an ordinary human being. Numerous long falls are the most obvious examples, but as Opecoiler pointed out, Obi-Wan was able to take punches that would dent metal, and the clones poured fire into every Jedi they attacked to make sure of a kill. Darth Vader blocked blaster shots with his hand in ESB, and even Luke took only minor damage from a shot that should have blown his hand off (ROTJ).

Yes, lot's of good stuff. On the same hand, I notice Obi-Wan's total lack of use of Force powers against even semi sentient voracious creatures.

I'm not following you... which incident are you referencing?

The use of Force powers is inconsistent at best, and the most interesting uses came from non average Jedi.

Actually, we don't know how much different Anakin and Obi-Wan are in their methods from other Jedi, since we see so little of the other Jedi in action. The one time we saw a lot of Jedi in a fight on Geonosis, the overwhelming number of their adversaries were droids. We just don't know much about how they'll act against living opponents if pressed.

Even Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't break off their chains until they had their lightsabre.

That's a good observation. Even if the things were welded shut, we've seen that some Jedi/Sith can apply enough force to rend metal. You're welcome to chalk it up to stupidity on their parts; it's not like that doesn't happen frequently in every SF series.

Even Jango could heatbutt Obi-Wan (ok, he went through some severe crap that would have killed any normal human), but it shows that even with super powers and a convenient precog, even the most powerful Jedi's defenses are open to blows.

Yes, blows of various kinds do get through periodically. As you noted, however, Jedi can also take a hit much better than an ordinary human.

That does not mean Worf would win. Again, I think any cornered Jedi will probably try some last daring Force movement before loosing any chance to win. The Klingon, I dunno, he's some kind of brute or so, tough, but not so much, and the fact remains that most Jedi are trained for combat as well.

I'm just not all that impressed with Klingons in general. We've seen various humans kick Klingon warriors about on many occasions; they just don't seem to have a massive physical advantage. Worf is a good hand-to-hand combatant, but Jedi seem to be as well, and they do have supernatural advantages that he just can't match.

I gave my vote to the Jedi since a while, but it's not a 100% against 0%, far from it.

I would never suggest it was 100%, but I do think the odds firmly favor the Jedi.

I think certain warsies have their minds a bit too polluted by the wank applied to Jedi in the EU, and forget about the less daunting feats seen in the films, which matter more in the end.

I've never been much of an EU reader, so I don't have that issue. I've seen the Clone Wars cartoons, and I think they're wanked out the ass; canon or not I just ignore them for debate purposes, since the feats Jedi/Sith pull in those cartoons are just outrageously beyond the bounds of anything seen in the movies.

[Mr. Oragahn]

As you point out, the Sith are far more prone to use the Force agressively against living beings.
The Jedi, all spoiled hypocrits that they are, will largely use technology instead, and only deflect stuff, eventually back at the enemy.

Yes, Jedi will use ordinary weapons by preference, but that doesn't actually stop them from using the Force if necessary. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin (as a Padawan) all used the Force against living beings (Palpatine, Grievous, Geonosians, and each other in the case of Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS) when needed. There's obviously a difference between not wanting to use the Force as a weapon and not being able to do so.

I do not dipsute the Jedi using the Force. The question is how, and when. Again, when talking about Jedi, you somehow feel necessary to mention Sith and Sith wannabes as examples. That's wrong, and we already covered this before.

Grievous was never the target of a direct Force power. Not even by Obi-Wan.
Yoda is the only Force user I saw using the Force agressively. First, it's Yoda, probably second most powerful Jedi after the wasted potential that Anakin was. He's far from your average Jedi Master or Knight.
Secondly, he faced a powerful Sith, and was actually replying to Sidious' attacks.

No matter how you try to look at it, you'll unavoidably see that the Jedi act in such a way with the Force that even thinking of using it directly is very disgusting to them.
Only an old cranky mage has enough wisdom, experience and power to attempt to use it offensively, as a ripost in fact, against a powerful dark Force user.

Point being, I don't see your average Jedi Knight using the Force directly, until cornered, and that, in fact, we're not even sure of.

Grievous' collection of lightsabres tells a lot, in fact.

But they're not trained to, and the average Jedi Knight is likely not remotely prone to doubt the teaching of a tightly enforced scholastic dogma called for failure, as we saw.

They're trained in the "how", as we see whenever Jedi use the Force against droids. As a matter of policy, however, they seem to avoid it.

Not "seem". It's painfully clear that they're completely castrated against the offensive and direct use of the Force to injury someone. Even to stun someone. They always need to cut arms. :D

Only Qui-Gon, influenced by Dooku, and having himself finally taught Obi-Wan, was the only Jedi to abuse of the seen as offensive power known as the "mind trick" so repeatedly, up to the point where fans looked at his hands ten times a minute to get a hint of a mind trick being used or not.

The Jedi only use it to gain resistance, control their moves, jump higher, move faster, see the past, present and future, use telekinesis against droids, calm down beings and heal.
Just listen to Obi-Wan's words in AOTC, when he goes to see his friend in the bar. Listen to how he snides the droids, for them being stupid. The Jedi clearly don't consider the machines to be anywhere equals, and that's largely explaining the use of Force against metal and machines, and not living beings.
Even Yoda's speech, a mix of both schools he refined after the Purge, is still about the crude matter and enlightened beings and rather nails this point against droids.

Yes, lot's of good stuff. On the same hand, I notice Obi-Wan's total lack of use of Force powers against even semi sentient voracious creatures.

I'm not following you... which incident are you referencing?

Geonosis arena. The Jedi are extremely reverent of life, even agressive life, up to the point where the lightsabre is the tool that expurgates all their sins.
Without a lightsabre, they're almost dead meat.

The use of Force powers is inconsistent at best, and the most interesting uses came from non average Jedi.

Actually, we don't know how much different Anakin and Obi-Wan are in their methods from other Jedi, since we see so little of the other Jedi in action. The one time we saw a lot of Jedi in a fight on Geonosis, the overwhelming number of their adversaries were droids. We just don't know much about how they'll act against living opponents if pressed.

And only the best, or most succesful ones, survived. I refer to the dinohead Jedi Master shot by Jango. Some have tried to excuse it because of recoil. I guess that recoil... Obi-Wan didn't have any problem with it. Nor did Mace Windu.
Claiming that Anakin isn't above the average Jedi, even in methods, is a tad absurd, don't you think? Honestly?
Only Obi-Wan was able to counter Anakin's attacks, mostly because he knew him well, and because Anakin wasn't able to use his full potential. And he was discovering the Dark side, the anger and all that stuff.
Anakin himself managed to outsmart and defeat Dooku, while Obi-Wan got owned.

Finally, Vader and his clones completely ravaged the Jedi temple.
So let's return to what is reasonable.

Even Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't break off their chains until they had their lightsabre.

That's a good observation. Even if the things were welded shut, we've seen that some Jedi/Sith can apply enough force to rend metal. You're welcome to chalk it up to stupidity on their parts; it's not like that doesn't happen frequently in every SF series.

Yeah well, that's the kind of plot inconsistency that will matter a lot in that bar fight.

Even Jango could heatbutt Obi-Wan (ok, he went through some severe crap that would have killed any normal human), but it shows that even with super powers and a convenient precog, even the most powerful Jedi's defenses are open to blows.

Yes, blows of various kinds do get through periodically. As you noted, however, Jedi can also take a hit much better than an ordinary human.

Exactly. Though one or two shots from Jango's gun were able to own a Jedi Master who has been sitting in the council.

That does not mean Worf would win. Again, I think any cornered Jedi will probably try some last daring Force movement before loosing any chance to win. The Klingon, I dunno, he's some kind of brute or so, tough, but not so much, and the fact remains that most Jedi are trained for combat as well.

I'm just not all that impressed with Klingons in general. We've seen various humans kick Klingon warriors about on many occasions; they just don't seem to have a massive physical advantage. Worf is a good hand-to-hand combatant, but Jedi seem to be as well, and they do have supernatural advantages that he just can't match.

I agree. The Klingons are completely blown out of proportions by many Trekkies. I'd like to see one single Youtube clip that shows just how the Klingons are supermen to incredible extents (say Grievous like for example), really, and have someone tell me that's regular, instead of exceptional.

I gave my vote to the Jedi since a while, but it's not a 100% against 0%, far from it.

I would never suggest it was 100%, but I do think the odds firmly favor the Jedi.

Yeah.

I think certain warsies have their minds a bit too polluted by the wank applied to Jedi in the EU, and forget about the less daunting feats seen in the films, which matter more in the end.

I've never been much of an EU reader, so I don't have that issue. I've seen the Clone Wars cartoons, and I think they're wanked out the ass; canon or not I just ignore them for debate purposes, since the feats Jedi/Sith pull in those cartoons are just outrageously beyond the bounds of anything seen in the movies.

Yes, it's Force showtime up to the power of a thousand.
Reminds that I can't wait for the live action series. Damn, real Star Wars stuff on TV. Just how long have people been waiting for that, really? :)

[Ted C]

I do not dipsute the Jedi using the Force. The question is how, and when. Again, when talking about Jedi, you somehow feel necessary to mention Sith and Sith wannabes as examples. That's wrong, and we already covered this before.:)

Anakin would be the only one in the "Sith wannabe" class, and then only in the duel with Obi-Wan. He was still a Jedi when he used the Force against the Geonosians.

Grievous was never the target of a direct Force power. Not even by Obi-Wan.:)

Yes he was. When he and Grievous had their little lightsabre duel, Obi-Wan gave Grievous one heck of a Force push, after which Grievous attempted to flee the planet entirely (leading to the lengthy chase through the battle and the final fight on the landing platform).

Yoda is the only Force user I saw using the Force agressively. First, it's Yoda, probably second most powerful Jedi after the wasted potential that Anakin was. He's far from your average Jedi Master or Knight. Secondly, he faced a powerful Sith, and was actually replying to Sidious' attacks.:)

In the droid factory on Geonosis, you see Anakin telekinetically throwing pieces of machinery at Geonosians who show up to try to capture him and Amidala.

No matter how you try to look at it, you'll unavoidably see that the Jedi act in such a way with the Force that even thinking of using it directly is very disgusting to them.

I don't think they see it as disgusting, I think they see it as dangerous. Using the Force as a weapon is flirting with the Dark Side. Nevertheless, they'll do it if pressed hard enough.

Point being, I don't see your average Jedi Knight using the Force directly, until cornered, and that, in fact, we're not even sure of.:)

I think any Jedi would be willing to use the Force defensively. That usually means parrying attacks with a lightsabre, but what's a Jedi without a lightsabre to do?

Using it to dodge attacks is an obvious option, but Anakin apparently used it to calm a rhino-like beast enough for him to get on his back and then ride it.

Grievous' collection of lightsabres tells a lot, in fact.:)

We don't actually know how he got them all, though. It's not like he directly fought Obi-Wan and Anakin to get theirs early in ROTS, you know.

They're trained in the "how", as we see whenever Jedi use the Force against droids. As a matter of policy, however, they seem to avoid it.

Not "seem". It's painfully clear that they're completely castrated against the offensive and direct use of the Force to injury someone. Even to stun someone. They always need to cut arms.:)[/quote]

Tell that to Jango Fett.

Only Qui-Gon, influenced by Dooku, and having himself finally taught Obi-Wan, was the only Jedi to abuse of the seen as offensive power known as the "mind trick" so repeatedly, up to the point where fans looked at his hands ten times a minute to get a hint of a mind trick being used or not.:)

Qui-Gonn abused the mind trick? He used it exactly once, as far as I know, trying to influence Watto, and that time it didn't even work.

The Jedi only use it to gain resistance, control their moves, jump higher, move faster, see the past, present and future, use telekinesis against droids, calm down beings and heal.:)

And even these options should be sufficient to win an unarmed bar fight, I would think.

Just listen to Obi-Wan's words in AOTC, when he goes to see his friend in the bar. Listen to how he snides the droids, for them being stupid. The Jedi clearly don't consider the machines to be anywhere equals, and that's largely explaining the use of Force against metal and machines, and not living beings.:)

Obi-Wan is hardly alone in his opinion, mind you. The Kaminoans also disparaged droids, and the clones certainly outperformed droids in battle.

Even Yoda's speech, a mix of both schools he refined after the Purge, is still about the crude matter and enlightened beings and rather nails this point against droids.

Yes, lot's of good stuff. On the same hand, I notice Obi-Wan's total lack of use of Force powers against even semi sentient voracious creatures.

I'm not following you... which incident are you referencing?

Geonosis arena. The Jedi are extremely reverent of life, even agressive life, up to the point where the lightsabre is the tool that expurgates all their sins.

Without a lightsabre, they're almost dead meat.

Obi-Wan didn't break off his pursuit of Grievous when separated from his lightsabre. That said, he did caution Anakin that his lightsabre was his "life" in AOTC, too. Jedi do rely on them pretty heavily, but they'll forge ahead without them, if need be.

And only the best, or most succesful ones, survived. I refer to the dinohead Jedi Master shot by Jango. Some have tried to excuse it because of recoil. I guess that recoil... Obi-Wan didn't have any problem with it. Nor did Mace Windu.:)

My assessment was that not all Jedi are equal, and this one just didn't keep up with Jango.

Claiming that Anakin isn't above the average Jedi, even in methods, is a tad absurd, don't you think? Honestly?

Let's face it, powerful though he was, Anakin was hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Only Obi-Wan was able to counter Anakin's attacks, mostly because he knew him well, and because Anakin wasn't able to use his full potential. And he was discovering the Dark side, the anger and all that stuff.:)

Obi-Wan was able to deal with Anakin because he retreated constantly, conserving his energy. Obi-Wan was clearly a lot smarter than Anakin.

Anakin himself managed to outsmart and defeat Dooku, while Obi-Wan got owned.:)

There was not subtlety or cunning in Anakin's final fight with Dooku. He wore him down cut him apart. Anakin beat Dooku with brute power, not smarts.

Finally, Vader and his clones completely ravaged the Jedi temple.

True. Using much the same methods employed in the Geonosis arena: overwhelming numbers and firepower. Most of the Jedi were out in the field, anyway, leading the Republic's armies against the Separatists.

That's a good observation. Even if the things were welded shut, we've seen that some Jedi/Sith can apply enough force to rend metal. You're welcome to chalk it up to stupidity on their parts; it's not like that doesn't happen frequently in every SF series.

Yeah well, that's the kind of plot inconsistency that will matter a lot in that bar fight.

Yes, blows of various kinds do get through periodically. As you noted, however, Jedi can also take a hit much better than an ordinary human.

Exactly. Though one or two shots from Jango's gun were able to own a Jedi Master who has been sitting in the council.:)

I would hardly call the Jedi who got shot by Jango a master. I don't recall seeing him sitting in the Council chambers; he looked completely generic, as best I can remember. This same weapon dropped that rhino-like beast in one shot, too, so it's not a puny weapon.

[Praeothmin]

Mr. Oragahn:
I agree that Klingons in general are wanked by Trekkies almost as much as Jedi are wanked by Warsies.
But usually, the humans who best Klingons in combat are important characters, or burly security personnel.

And we are not talking about a generic Klingon, this thread is about Worf, who has been shown, in the DS9 episode on Risa, that he possesses strenght well beyond that of a normal human being.
His strenght has also been shown many times as superior to a normal human in TNG, when he had to lift heavy debris off of a comrade at least once.
We saw hm take punishment that would down an ordinary human, when he endures multiple contacts with pain sticks in a Klingon ritual.
Pain sticks that were set at their highest, with a charge sufficient to drop some king of a bull in one shot (I don't quite remember the creature).

So Worf is a much more dangerous opponent then Jango.

But, as I had previously stated, if a Jedi uses some Force pushes, Force jumps, and throws some Bar equipment at Worf, basically if he uses the Force intelligently, the Jedi wins.

Ted C:
Qui-Gonn also used Mind Tricks on Jar-Jar when they first met him (I agree, it wasn't very hard), he used the force to change the outcome of the dice roll.
He basically uses the force a lot for what other Jedis might refer to as "trivial" tasks.

And as for Anakin, even though he was still a "Jedi" (being a Padawan), he was laready using the Dark Side more and more, so he cannot be compared to any standard Jedi.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Anakin would be the only one in the "Sith wannabe" class, and then only in the duel with Obi-Wan. He was still a Jedi when he used the Force against the Geonosians.

He already was out of bounds. It happens after he has slaughtered an entire village. Hello? Besides, Obi-Wan wasn't there to watch him, he knew he should have tried to stop Padmé from getting away, and, last but certainly not least, he's made very bad things because of Padmé, and at that moment she was in great danger.

Grievous was never the target of a direct Force power. Not even by Obi-Wan.:)

Yes he was. When he and Grievous had their little lightsabre duel, Obi-Wan gave Grievous one heck of a Force push, after which Grievous attempted to flee the planet entirely (leading to the lengthy chase through the battle and the final fight on the landing platform).

Point conceded. The Force push was powerful.
Grievous was largely part machine, and I don't consider Obi-Wan the typical Jedi following the rules as strictly as, say, if Jocasta Nu was given a lightsabre.
But I've rewatched the battle, and I agree that the force displayed by Grievous is remarkable.
Obi-Wan clearly used the force to increase his own strenght, at least, the defense part of it.

I guess that probably tips the balance a bit in favour of the Jedi side. It took him a while to do so, and he didn't exactly use the Force to snap a vein or destroy an energy cell.

No matter how you try to look at it, you'll unavoidably see that the Jedi act in such a way with the Force that even thinking of using it directly is very disgusting to them.

I don't think they see it as disgusting, I think they see it as dangerous. Using the Force as a weapon is flirting with the Dark Side. Nevertheless, they'll do it if pressed hard enough.

So it seems that my theory on the cornered Jedi would apply, finally.

Grievous' collection of lightsabres tells a lot, in fact.:)

We don't actually know how he got them all, though. It's not like he directly fought Obi-Wan and Anakin to get theirs early in ROTS, you know.

He always sends those droids, but once they're down, he picks the fight alone. They probably filter out the lame from those worthy adversories.

Not "seem". It's painfully clear that they're completely castrated against the offensive and direct use of the Force to injury someone. Even to stun someone. They always need to cut arms.:)

Tell that to Jango Fett.

Irrelevant. For sure, aiming for the neck is not the best way to incapacitate someone for capture and interrogation.

Only Qui-Gon, influenced by Dooku, and having himself finally taught Obi-Wan, was the only Jedi to abuse of the seen as offensive power known as the "mind trick" so repeatedly, up to the point where fans looked at his hands ten times a minute to get a hint of a mind trick being used or not.:)

Qui-Gonn abused the mind trick? He used it exactly once, as far as I know, trying to influence Watto, and that time it didn't even work.

He used it on Watto, tried several times. He used it on Jar Jar. He used twice of not thrice on Boss Nass. And maybe another one.

The Jedi only use it to gain resistance, control their moves, jump higher, move faster, see the past, present and future, use telekinesis against droids, calm down beings and heal.:)

And even these options should be sufficient to win an unarmed bar fight, I would think.

Yes. Even by what Preathomin says, I think a Jedi can pull something truly powerful. Now, don't get it wrong, Worf seems to be tough, and he's above many fighters, but there's a limit there.
However, we always work from the best out there (Obi-Wan for example).
They do not represent your average Jedi Knight.

A Jedi Knight could be defeated. He's just much more likely to win.

Just listen to Obi-Wan's words in AOTC, when he goes to see his friend in the bar. Listen to how he snides the droids, for them being stupid. The Jedi clearly don't consider the machines to be anywhere equals, and that's largely explaining the use of Force against metal and machines, and not living beings.:)

Obi-Wan is hardly alone in his opinion, mind you. The Kaminoans also disparaged droids, and the clones certainly outperformed droids in battle.

Irrelevant. The Kaminoans aren't the Jedi. It only gives all the more reasons for the Jedi to treat the droids as mere talking tincans.

Obi-Wan didn't break off his pursuit of Grievous when separated from his lightsabre.

That is not relevant to the total lack of the use of Force powers against the creatures.
Maybe he was buying time.

That said, he did caution Anakin that his lightsabre was his "life" in AOTC, too. Jedi do rely on them pretty heavily, but they'll forge ahead without them, if need be.

Yet, funny that Obi-Wan tried to defeat Grievous with both a spike and a blaster, the later killing the general.

And only the best, or most succesful ones, survived. I refer to the dinohead Jedi Master shot by Jango. Some have tried to excuse it because of recoil. I guess that recoil... Obi-Wan didn't have any problem with it. Nor did Mace Windu.:)

My assessment was that not all Jedi are equal, and this one just didn't keep up with Jango.

That one was a master though, and wouldn't be sent at Geonosis if he didn't have a minimum of training. Not being able to block the blaster fire from one individual only scores bad points.

Claiming that Anakin isn't above the average Jedi, even in methods, is a tad absurd, don't you think? Honestly?

Let's face it, powerful though he was, Anakin was hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer.

But clearly the most apt to actually stab you in the back. ;)
He's been toying with the dark side so much that it clearly makes him different. And for pity's sake, he's Anakin damn, the guy with the highest midi count.
He's far from your Jedi Joe. I won't listen to more examples of Anakin did this or that. As the Chosen One, his power and nature makes him one of the worst possible examples of what we need for an average Jedi.

Only Obi-Wan was able to counter Anakin's attacks, mostly because he knew him well, and because Anakin wasn't able to use his full potential. And he was discovering the Dark side, the anger and all that stuff.:)

Obi-Wan was able to deal with Anakin because he retreated constantly, conserving his energy. Obi-Wan was clearly a lot smarter than Anakin.

Dooku retrated as well. He still bought it dry in the end.

Exactly. Though one or two shots from Jango's gun were able to own a Jedi Master who has been sitting in the council.:)

I would hardly call the Jedi who got shot by Jango a master. I don't recall seeing him sitting in the Council chambers;

Watch AOTC, after Zam's killed.

he looked completely generic, as best I can remember. This same weapon dropped that rhino-like beast in one shot, too, so it's not a puny weapon.

And we know that the ruuk had a thick head because?
Besides, two of the best Jedi survived against it.

[Gniops]

And we know that the ruuk had a thick head because?

I think it'd be silly to assume the beasty didn't have a thick bonce.

lets face it, the things behaviour basically wrote " This beasty rams things with its head when pissed off " in huge neon letters across the arena.

common sense should prevail here I think.

[WolfRitter]

There's obviously a difference between not wanting to use the Force as a weapon and not being able to do so.

As Master Fay so beautifully illustrates.

[Praeothmin]

The image is nice, but we can see no words...

[StarPixie]

...

[Ted C]

And we know that the ruuk had a thick head because?

I think it'd be silly to assume the beasty didn't have a thick bonce.

And did it not ram full speed into the stone column to which Anakin was chained without injuring itself?

[TheRedFear]

Against run of the mill Jedi worf takes this.

I don't see Joe Average the Jedi being able to throw random bar objects harder than genetically enhanced super soldiers can punch. And Worf endured numerous back to back fights with Jem Hadar, given only minimal treatment in between fights, and still couldn't be kept down by the last and toughest opponant.

This little Punk Jedi aint gonna be able to put Worf down for the count before Worf gets his hands on him, and the minute that happens, it's Weyoun 7(or was it 6?) all over again.

SNAP!