Mr. Oragahn wrote:I do not dipsute the Jedi using the Force. The question is how, and when. Again, when talking about Jedi, you somehow feel necessary to mention Sith and Sith wannabes as examples. That's wrong, and we already covered this before.:)
Anakin would be the only one in the "Sith wannabe" class, and then only in the duel with Obi-Wan. He was still a Jedi when he used the Force against the Geonosians.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Grievous was never the target of a direct Force power. Not even by Obi-Wan.:)
Yes he was. When he and Grievous had their little lightsabre duel, Obi-Wan gave Grievous one heck of a Force push, after which Grievous attempted to flee the planet entirely (leading to the lengthy chase through the battle and the final fight on the landing platform).
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yoda is the only Force user I saw using the Force agressively. First, it's Yoda, probably second most powerful Jedi after the wasted potential that Anakin was. He's far from your average Jedi Master or Knight. Secondly, he faced a powerful Sith, and was actually replying to Sidious' attacks.:)
In the droid factory on Geonosis, you see Anakin telekinetically throwing pieces of machinery at Geonosians who show up to try to capture him and Amidala.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:No matter how you try to look at it, you'll unavoidably see that the Jedi act in such a way with the Force that even thinking of using it directly is very disgusting to them.
I don't think they see it as disgusting, I think they see it as dangerous. Using the Force as a weapon is flirting with the Dark Side. Nevertheless, they'll do it if pressed hard enough.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Point being, I don't see your average Jedi Knight using the Force directly, until cornered, and that, in fact, we're not even sure of.:)
I think any Jedi would be willing to use the Force defensively. That usually means parrying attacks with a lightsabre, but what's a Jedi without a lightsabre to do?
Using it to dodge attacks is an obvious option, but Anakin apparently used it to calm a rhino-like beast enough for him to get on his back and then ride it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Grievous' collection of lightsabres tells a lot, in fact.:)
We don't actually know how he got them all, though. It's not like he directly fought Obi-Wan and Anakin to get theirs early in ROTS, you know.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:They're trained in the "how", as we see whenever Jedi use the Force against droids. As a matter of policy, however, they seem to avoid it.
Not "seem". It's painfully clear that they're completely castrated against the offensive and direct use of the Force to injury someone. Even to stun someone. They always need to cut arms.:)[/quote]
Tell that to Jango Fett.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Only Qui-Gon, influenced by Dooku, and having himself finally taught Obi-Wan, was the only Jedi to abuse of the seen as offensive power known as the "mind trick" so repeatedly, up to the point where fans looked at his hands ten times a minute to get a hint of a mind trick being used or not.:)
Qui-Gonn abused the mind trick? He used it exactly once, as far as I know, trying to influence Watto, and that time it didn't even work.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Jedi only use it to gain resistance, control their moves, jump higher, move faster, see the past, present and future, use telekinesis against droids, calm down beings and heal.:)
And even these options should be sufficient to win an unarmed bar fight, I would think.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Just listen to Obi-Wan's words in AOTC, when he goes to see his friend in the bar. Listen to how he snides the droids, for them being stupid. The Jedi clearly don't consider the machines to be anywhere equals, and that's largely explaining the use of Force against metal and machines, and not living beings.:)
Obi-Wan is hardly alone in his opinion, mind you. The Kaminoans also disparaged droids, and the clones certainly outperformed droids in battle.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Even Yoda's speech, a mix of both schools he refined after the Purge, is still about the crude matter and enlightened beings and rather nails this point against droids.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Yes, lot's of good stuff. On the same hand, I notice Obi-Wan's total lack of use of Force powers against even semi sentient voracious creatures.
I'm not following you... which incident are you referencing?
Geonosis arena. The Jedi are extremely reverent of life, even agressive life, up to the point where the lightsabre is the tool that expurgates all their sins.
Without a lightsabre, they're almost dead meat.
Obi-Wan didn't break off his pursuit of Grievous when separated from his lightsabre. That said, he did caution Anakin that his lightsabre was his "life" in AOTC, too. Jedi do rely on them pretty heavily, but they'll forge ahead without them, if need be.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:And only the best, or most succesful ones, survived. I refer to the dinohead Jedi Master shot by Jango. Some have tried to excuse it because of recoil. I guess that recoil... Obi-Wan didn't have any problem with it. Nor did Mace Windu.:)
My assessment was that not all Jedi are equal, and this one just didn't keep up with Jango.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Claiming that Anakin isn't above the average Jedi, even in methods, is a tad absurd, don't you think? Honestly?
Let's face it, powerful though he was, Anakin was hardly the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Only Obi-Wan was able to counter Anakin's attacks, mostly because he knew him well, and because Anakin wasn't able to use his full potential. And he was discovering the Dark side, the anger and all that stuff.:)
Obi-Wan was able to deal with Anakin because he retreated constantly, conserving his energy. Obi-Wan was clearly a lot smarter than Anakin.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Anakin himself managed to outsmart and defeat Dooku, while Obi-Wan got owned.:)
There was not subtlety or cunning in Anakin's final fight with Dooku. He wore him down cut him apart. Anakin beat Dooku with brute power, not smarts.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Finally, Vader and his clones completely ravaged the Jedi temple.
True. Using much the same methods employed in the Geonosis arena: overwhelming numbers and firepower. Most of the Jedi were out in the field, anyway, leading the Republic's armies against the Separatists.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
That's a good observation. Even if the things were welded shut, we've seen that some Jedi/Sith can apply enough force to rend metal. You're welcome to chalk it up to stupidity on their parts; it's not like that doesn't happen frequently in every SF series.
Yeah well, that's the kind of plot inconsistency that will matter a lot in that bar fight.
Yes, blows of various kinds do get through periodically. As you noted, however, Jedi can also take a hit much better than an ordinary human.
Exactly. Though one or two shots from Jango's gun were able to own a Jedi Master who has been sitting in the council.:)
I would hardly call the Jedi who got shot by Jango a master. I don't recall seeing him sitting in the Council chambers; he looked completely generic, as best I can remember. This same weapon dropped that rhino-like beast in one shot, too, so it's not a puny weapon.