Voyager versus the Evil Time Lords

[Narsil]

However, that is a complication when, out of the lot; Rassilon, Omega, and the Rani can remote-control their TARDISes. The Valeyard might also be able to do it. And a TARDIS can go through a force field; in fact I don't think there's anything in existence that can stop a TARDIS.

And the Master's tactics usually involve subtle manipulation; he rarely ever kills for fun, he just has fun whenever he kills. He kills those who are in the way.

[Roondar]

However, that is a complication when, out of the lot; Rassilon, Omega, and the Rani can remote-control their TARDISes. The Valeyard might also be able to do it. And a TARDIS can go through a force field; in fact I don't think there's anything in existence that can stop a TARDIS.

And the Master's tactics usually involve subtle manipulation; he rarely ever kills for fun, he just has fun whenever he kills. He kills those who are in the way.

Another TARDIS might ;)

Anyhoo, I'm just throwing about ideas here, nothing too serious.

And besides, I already stated (but that keeps getting ignored) that I think the best bet for the Voyager crew would be to be dimplomats, show to the 'good guys' of the bunch they are worthy of being allies or not destroyed/hurt/whatevered and combine in a front versus the bad dudes.

Or, if there are only bad dudes, attempt to set them up against each other.

It's not like these things haven't been done before. And the UFP has one massive advantage over the other poor fools the Timelords have met. They thrive on alien contact. They live for it even. They have whole departments designated to figuring out how to deal with the alien and unknown. They are -to a point- all good diplomats (better than average anyway and certainly the commanding officers). Talk is part of their weapon and the UFP does wield it well. Voyager is no exception here.

They're also a lot less gullible than the average human. And have shown a tendency to get back on top even if things turn against them.

In all, it'd be interesting to say the least.

Edit: Doh.. That'd be UFP, not UPF :P

[Narsil]

It would be, which is why I specified five individual Time Lords, which is interesting, rather than a specifically militaristic group like the Celestial Intervention Agency or the Time Lord Council, which is an immediate curbstomp. One would erase the Voyager's whole existence, and the other would put them on trial for numerous counts of breaking the First Law of Time, Second Law of Time and Third Law of Time.

[Roondar]

It would be, which is why I specified five individual Time Lords, which is interesting, rather than a specifically militaristic group like the Celestial Intervention Agency or the Time Lord Council, which is an immediate curbstomp. One would erase the Voyager's whole existence, and the other would put them on trial for numerous counts of breaking the First Law of Time, Second Law of Time and Third Law of Time.

You'll get no argument from me there.. The resources of the Timelords in general (as in not five individuals at odds with each other) would be more than capable of destroying Voyager.

[GStone]

They might offer them the use of their transporters, if they can work together get them back to their own reality. For Trek tech, crossing parallel reality barriers doesn't cause the same hazards (TOS: Mirror, Mirror) as seen with Whovian tech/methods ("Army of Ghosts", "Doomsday").

[Narsil]

The Time Lords here would probably be capable of breaking through the barriers between universes with ease as their current survival implies that Gallifrey isn't a mass of free-floating atoms. It was only after the Time War that inter-universal travel became problematic; as seen in Battlefield it was once quite possible for the TARDIS to travel 'sideways' in time, and the Doctor himself mentioned it in Rise of the Cybermen.

[Mith]

The Time Lords here would probably be capable of breaking through the barriers between universes with ease as their current survival implies that Gallifrey isn't a mass of free-floating atoms. It was only after the Time War that inter-universal travel became problematic; as seen in Battlefield it was once quite possible for the TARDIS to travel 'sideways' in time, and the Doctor himself mentioned it in Rise of the Cybermen.

Unfortuantely, these Time Lords are not all that typically bright, save for perhaps the Master. They have this really bad tendency to let their enemies run a alot, and they are vulnarble to transporters and phasers, and unlike their nemisis, the Doctor, they tend to fire phasers. A lot.

And again, you're looking at the crew that managed to activate the reset button in several different episodes.

[Narsil]

Rassilon is a foe that the Doctor was too scared to actually fight and duly avoided, and the Valeyard is the Doctor, for all intents and purposes. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Doctor Who, Mith, and the only genuinely useless Time Lord there is actually the Rani. The Master did that awesome bit of conquering-the-world in The Sound of Drums, Rassilon and Omega built the entirety of Time Lord civilisation and technology, and the Valeyard is literally a future form of the Doctor gone a bit evil.

[Mith]

Rassilon is a foe that the Doctor was too scared to actually fight and duly avoided,

So what? Rassilon is the key figure to their history, and supposedly led the Time Lords into their golden age. Damn right he'd be scared.

Janeway on the other hand, stands up to Q, who is frankly, far more dangerous than Rassilon ever was.

and the Valeyard is the Doctor, for all intents and purposes.

Ah yes, because running is always useful on a starship with transporters and security fields.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Doctor Who, Mith,

Really? For all you know I could be a big Doctor Who fan, and as a matter of fact, I am. However, that doesn't change the fact that most of the bad guys are pathetically incompetent.

and the only genuinely useless Time Lord there is actually the Rani.

Or rather, the whole race that decided that sitting on their ass while forgetting that their main power source is located under their own city, or know how to shut down their own planetary shielding.

The Master did that awesome bit of conquering-the-world in The Sound of Drums,

Where he was stupid enough to keep someone alive who has a nasty reputation of seizing victory from the jaws of defeat. And then decided to sit down and listen to someone, even when it was clearly presented that they were pulling him into a trap. Rather than kill her and the Doctor, or just ordering that the Archangel Network be shut down, he sat there like an idiot.

Rassilon and Omega built the entirety of Time Lord civilisation and technology,

Rassilon built the entirety of Time Lord civilization, who aren't seemingly that bright. Hey, let's have our young ones stare into the raw energy in time and space, despite the fact that it has been known to drive them insane.

Hey, I wonder why our race is dwindling down to the point where one city can sustain us?

And as for Omega, he got the shaft by being stuck in the antimatter world, and has tried to destroy the Time Lords on occasions.

and the Valeyard is literally a future form of the Doctor gone a bit evil.

So what? He moves slowly and is easily vaporized via phaser.

[Roondar]

Janeway only stood up to Q because the Q, on average, don't really try to kill anyone (permanently anyway) and because she knew from prior Starfleet experience that she'd probably get away with it.

BTW, about transporters - the doctor is frequently spotted in cultures or on ships that have that very ability. Doesn't change much about his nasty tendency to always win though.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's because in the Whoverse, They usually have transmat booths, with no flexible transport ability the way Trek transporters do, thus using the Whovian transmat transporter as a possible weapon against someone is usually near impossible, except in cases of sabotage.
-Mike

[Mith]

Janeway only stood up to Q because the Q, on average, don't really try to kill anyone (permanently anyway) and because she knew from prior Starfleet experience that she'd probably get away with it.

Bull. Q was also the one who tossed the flagship in the oncoming path of a Borg cube, put humanity on trial, caused the Enterprise D to be attacked (thus risking thousands, if not millions of lives in the process), and even played a horrible game with Picard to see if he guessed what he did wrong so that humanity DOES end up existing.

BTW, about transporters - the doctor is frequently spotted in cultures or on ships that have that very ability. Doesn't change much about his nasty tendency to always win though.

That's also due to the limited ability of transmats, and the fact that most of his enemies are fucking morons. Rather than say, have the Daleks use this very same technology to beam the Doctor over to their ship where he would be powerless, they decide to let him get back in the TARDIS, or to shoot at him with missiles, which would be child's play to dodge with a time machine.

Face it, the Doctor wins because most of his enemies are really, really dumb.

[Roondar]

Janeway only stood up to Q because the Q, on average, don't really try to kill anyone (permanently anyway) and because she knew from prior Starfleet experience that she'd probably get away with it.

Bull. Q was also the one who tossed the flagship in the oncoming path of a Borg cube, put humanity on trial, caused the Enterprise D to be attacked (thus risking thousands, if not millions of lives in the process), and even played a horrible game with Picard to see if he guessed what he did wrong so that humanity DOES end up existing.

Let's see...

Q vs Humanity trials 1 and 2. End result: ZERO deaths.
Q in all other episodes (TNG, DS9, Voy) except the Borg one. End result: ZERO deaths.
Q in Borg episode. End result: Q rescues the E-D and gives them advance warning about the Borg and Picard admits that it was, albeit a selfish and dangerous act by Q, mostly a good thing that it happened.

Don't forget that the Borg threat was present before Q threw them over there - colonies had already disapeared mysteriously.

In other words: you're wrong, Q is not out to kill/maim/murder humanity in any way and acts like it.

BTW, about transporters - the doctor is frequently spotted in cultures or on ships that have that very ability. Doesn't change much about his nasty tendency to always win though.

That's also due to the limited ability of transmats, and the fact that most of his enemies are fucking morons. Rather than say, have the Daleks use this very same technology to beam the Doctor over to their ship where he would be powerless, they decide to let him get back in the TARDIS, or to shoot at him with missiles, which would be child's play to dodge with a time machine.

Face it, the Doctor wins because most of his enemies are really, really dumb.

Face it, the Doctor wins versus enemies that would cream the Federation in a second. Not too mention they're not any different from any enemies the Feds face - they're all equally stupid.

In fact, the Feds are just as stupid in using their tech. Every single time the E-D gets invaded by humanoid entities a simple transport to the brig (or failing that, into space for the really dangerous loonies) would stop the invasion. They never do that though.

Or how about stuff like that lovely Voyager episode where they let the Kazon steal technology. Lock a tractor beam indeed. Oh noes, we have them in the tractor beam and they are trying (and indeed succeeding) to break out. Let's not attempt to destroy the much smaller and weaker enemy ship or even try to disable them. Nooo, we'll just let them fly off while we're looking stupid.

[Mith]

Let's see...

Q vs Humanity trials 1 and 2. End result: ZERO deaths.
Q in all other episodes (TNG, DS9, Voy) except the Borg one. End result: ZERO deaths.
Q in Borg episode. End result: Q rescues the E-D and gives them advance warning about the Borg and Picard admits that it was, albeit a selfish and dangerous act by Q, mostly a good thing that it happened.

Don't forget that the Borg threat was present before Q threw them over there - colonies had already disapeared mysteriously.

In other words: you're wrong, Q is not out to kill/maim/murder humanity in any way and acts like it.

Sorry, but he still causes more danger and chaos around him then the Doctor does on a regular basis. In fact, he dragged Janeway into the middle of a warzone, where their weapons that cause supernovas as side effects can hit her directly. Not to mention that while in these dangerous situations that turn out okay, the crew is always faced with mortal danger, and aren't without the insurance that Q will end it. Q Who proved that.

But do, please go on.

Face it, the Doctor wins versus enemies that would cream the Federation in a second. Not too mention they're not any different from any enemies the Feds face - they're all equally stupid.

Ah yes, because surely the Federation would be stumped against an enemy that can't withstand 21st century bullets, and despite being claimed the best warriors in the universe, they died faster than Red Shirts.

In fact, the Feds are just as stupid in using their tech. Every single time the E-D gets invaded by humanoid entities a simple transport to the brig (or failing that, into space for the really dangerous loonies) would stop the invasion. They never do that though.

Actually, that's wrong. While true in early TNG, this ceased in DS9 and Voyager, where the enemies often had ways of fooling sensors, blocking transporter locks, disabling transporters, or some other defense against it.

Or how about stuff like that lovely Voyager episode where they let the Kazon steal technology. Lock a tractor beam indeed. Oh noes, we have them in the tractor beam and they are trying (and indeed succeeding) to break out. Let's not attempt to destroy the much smaller and weaker enemy ship or even try to disable them. Nooo, we'll just let them fly off while we're looking stupid.

Uh-huh. Tell that to the Dalek genuis that had about five seconds of the TARDIS materializing around him, with the Doctor standing about ten feet away, and then hitting the ceiling about five feet to high. At least UFP officers can aim straight.

Oh, yeah, and at least their UFP temporal technology doesn't suck balls, they can easily go back and redo something they failed at, while the Doctor cannot once he's become a part of that timeline specifically.

[Roondar]

Let's see...

Q vs Humanity trials 1 and 2. End result: ZERO deaths.
Q in all other episodes (TNG, DS9, Voy) except the Borg one. End result: ZERO deaths.
Q in Borg episode. End result: Q rescues the E-D and gives them advance warning about the Borg and Picard admits that it was, albeit a selfish and dangerous act by Q, mostly a good thing that it happened.

Don't forget that the Borg threat was present before Q threw them over there - colonies had already disapeared mysteriously.

In other words: you're wrong, Q is not out to kill/maim/murder humanity in any way and acts like it.

Sorry, but he still causes more danger and chaos around him then the Doctor does on a regular basis. In fact, he dragged Janeway into the middle of a warzone, where their weapons that cause supernovas as side effects can hit her directly. Not to mention that while in these dangerous situations that turn out okay, the crew is always faced with mortal danger, and aren't without the insurance that Q will end it. Q Who proved that.

But do, please go on.

Sorry, but the Doctor is regularly seen in scenarios where all of humanity or the population of entire worlds is put at risk all at once, sometimes with pretty nasty results - usually with multiple deaths. In fact, the typical scenario involving the Doctor ends up with everyone but the doctor and his companion dead. This handily beats anything Q has ever accomplished against the Federation.

Especially since the Borg where already a threat to the Federation before Q showed them in Q Who - they where the mysterious force scooping up colonies at the Federation border at the end of season one of TNG.

Arguably, Q showing the Federation the Borg was in fact doing them a favour - if he hadn't done so the whole Borg war might have gone quite different.

Face it, the Doctor wins versus enemies that would cream the Federation in a second. Not too mention they're not any different from any enemies the Feds face - they're all equally stupid.

Ah yes, because surely the Federation would be stumped against an enemy that can't withstand 21st century bullets, and despite being claimed the best warriors in the universe, they died faster than Red Shirts.

Those same enemies where also about to blow up Earth after they had narrowly failed to kill some five-six billion people using other means. They also where amused by the thought of the entire nuclear arsenal* of the world being used against their ship. Both the doctor and the Sontarens where quite conviced they'd live through it anyway.

*) Which is to say, some 10GT worth of nukes.

Not too mention the Federation where stumped against an enemy that decided that a straight-line charge against a wall of defenders was a good idea. They even almost got away with it for frick's sake.

And let's not forget how the Federation was repeatedly humiliated during ground combat against forces which dared use knives and swords (of all things!) as their prefered combat weapons and which showed all the tactical know-how and aiming capacity of a bunch of untrained toddlers with guns.

In fact, the Feds are just as stupid in using their tech. Every single time the E-D gets invaded by humanoid entities a simple transport to the brig (or failing that, into space for the really dangerous loonies) would stop the invasion. They never do that though.

Actually, that's wrong. While true in early TNG, this ceased in DS9 and Voyager, where the enemies often had ways of fooling sensors, blocking transporter locks, disabling transporters, or some other defense against it.

Actually, thats nonsense. They repeatedly don't try to beam away threats, even if those threats are simple humanoids without protection. Such as say, just about every enemy we get to see during Voyager's first few seasons.

They repeatedly 'forget' they even have certain abilities that could be useful in critical situations. Like say using all your weapons when you are getting creamed in a fight instead of firing one photon torpedo. Or using your handphaser above the 'sparks fly of the brick wall' setting when the enemy takes cover behind stuff they can vaporise easily enough.

Or how about stuff like that lovely Voyager episode where they let the Kazon steal technology. Lock a tractor beam indeed. Oh noes, we have them in the tractor beam and they are trying (and indeed succeeding) to break out. Let's not attempt to destroy the much smaller and weaker enemy ship or even try to disable them. Nooo, we'll just let them fly off while we're looking stupid.

Uh-huh. Tell that to the Dalek genuis that had about five seconds of the TARDIS materializing around him, with the Doctor standing about ten feet away, and then hitting the ceiling about five feet to high. At least UFP officers can aim straight.

Oh, yeah, and at least their UFP temporal technology doesn't suck balls, they can easily go back and redo something they failed at, while the Doctor cannot once he's become a part of that timeline specifically.

I was not arguing about the Daleks. I was showing you that there are plenty of idiots in Starfleet, even at the very 'top' of the foodchain. Janeway should have nuked the bastards when they stole that transporter module. She didn't even try and is an idiot for it. People died because of her stupidity there.

Now, if that kind of thing happened just once I'd not see it as a big problem. But it happens all the time - Federation captains seem very good at losing control of their ships without good reason or getting all sorts of trouble that could have been prevented by a more agressive stance towards people that try to kill you. Federation officers on away missions get in tons of trouble becuase they act stupid when something threatening shows up. Mysterious tricorder readings/jammed sensors + spread out away team for no good reason = you deserve to die for being stupid.

Face it, the Federation would be in a much better position if it wasn't so insanely naïve and peaceloving towards it's neighbors all the time. I mean, peaceful relations are fine and dandy but really - when the other party lies, steals and murders to get what they want while saying they want peace and they do it more than once, you shove a photon torpedo up their behind. You don't negotiate a truce with people who'll break it behind your backs time and time again.

As to the time tech - the Federation regularly ends up nearly blowing itself up through the use of it's 'superior' tech. The Doctors position on paradoxes and not altering the past are the correct ones because you just can't know what you'll change when you go back in time and start mucking with the timeline. As an example: for all we know the entire horror of the Dominion war was caused by Sisko's insistance to greet James Kirk.