The Wargamers' Special: Battle of Tukayyid 40,000

[Jedi Master Spock]

Game stats do not reflect canon in the slightest in 40K. You're wasting your time using them, because nobody with even a passing familiarity with the universe is going to take you seriously if you base your calcs on the result of a staggeringly large and complex series of variables crammed into a D6 game that has been balanced.

And as I just said in my post above, the argument is not dependent in the least on WH40K game mechanics.

I did just do another demonstration that used BT game mechanics in that post, but as mentioned fairly often on SB.com, fluff and novels seem to generally closely follow BT game mechanics, to the point where some novel authors actually "play" scenes to help them write them. Hence, a BT large laser melts a half ton in numerous descriptions.

Saying the standard laser-grade infantry weapon, by extension, should be rated at 40-80 megajoules' blast arriving at target is dependent on game mechanics, but perfectly logical given the above. Saying this makes it superior in per-blast yield to the lasgun is not dependent on WH40K game mechanics.

• It could also be taken as the power pack capacity rather than the per-shot consumption, on the low end.
• In the mid-range, efficiency may be fairly low depending on the type of laser used; it wouldn't be out of the question to spend 19 megajoules, and have less than half that actually impact the target. Actual quantifications of lasgun shots in novels collected by, say, NecronLord, a WH40K fan who posts on SB.com and SDN, have generally fallen around a median of ~1.9 megajoules' effect per shot.
• High-end: 19 MJ is a generous figure for the lasgun if we assume that's the shot strength. Meaning the lasgun is still outclassed by BT's standard "laser infantry weapon."

And how much stronger is the lascannon? Everything2.com says that all Imperium laser weapons take the same power packs. I assume that's recited from some scraped source that in turn cited some WH40K codex. I hear that lasguns get 50-60 shots per power pack, while lascannon eat a pack per shot.

• Low end: If the pack has a 19 megajoule capacity, then the lascannon consumes only 19 MJ of power per shot. Which is then reduced any inefficiencies in the firing. Meaning the lascannon is really weak by BT standards.
• Mid range: Basing on a "typical" 1.9 MJ lasgun shot and assuming the lascannon has the same efficiency as the lasgun with x50-60 shots, that's about 100 megajoules (95-114). Meaning the lascannon is outclassed by the BT small laser by a factor of 2-4.
• High end: 50-60 shots x 19 megajoules per shot gives about a gigajoule. Which puts it within the range of yields for a BT large laser.

So that's three estimates. The middle one is clearly the superior estimate, since it considers all the evidence used by the others and, in addition, evidence that raises questions about the assumptions used by the low and high estimates.

My "generous" estimation above is, appropriately enough, noticeably higher than the best-guess estimate, and noticeably lower than the unrealistic high-end calculation. I don't see any support for saying that WH40K has ton-for-ton superiority; I do see support for saying BT has ton-for-ton superiority, at least before we start dealing with Void shields.

Take that "good" fluff-and-effect-based estimate - 95-114 MJ per shot - and say that twelve of those in a salvo can make the void shields of a scout titan flicker. That means that 1140-1368 MJ (1.1-1.4 gigajoules) makes a scout Titan's void shields flicker. That means that one regular old BT large laser can't actually hurt a scout Titan. At best, it's making its shields flicker; at worst, it's slightly under half what's needed to even temporarily drop the shields.

Maybe laser weapons aren't the best benchmark, but they do seem to be very common weapons in both universes from what I can tell.

[Thanatos]

I hear that lasguns get 50-60 shots per power pack, while lascannon eat a pack per shot.

Contrary to the poorly researched one author article with no cited sources, Lascannons do not use even remotely the same power supplies as lasguns. The author is mistakenly referring to hotshot packs for normal Lasguns. Manpack Lascannons use much larger power packs.

So we can safely throw out all of your calcs from that post relating to Lascannons. I suggest you do actual research into the primary source material if you wish to have any credibility when attempting calcs.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Game stats do not reflect canon in the slightest in 40K. You're wasting your time using them, because nobody with even a passing familiarity with the universe is going to take you seriously if you base your calcs on the result of a staggeringly large and complex series of variables crammed into a D6 game that has been balanced.

Stop me there, but game mechanics can't be used in any way, but play figures can to prove the existence of special packs?

[Thanatos]

Stop me there, but game mechanics can't be used in any way, but play figures can to prove the existence of special packs?

Seeing as how its a model of a Lascannon rather than abstract, simplistic numbers used to describe complex variables and I was using it to provide visual reference, and only game mechanics are not canon: Yes, quite obviously.

Even though there's no need to provide "proof" that lascannons don't use lasgun packs because its just one random twat on a crappy version of Wikipedia making a claim, I'm going to be the far better person and provide a quick blurb even though you won't find a depiction, reference or implication that they use lasgun packs outside of just one random twat on a crappy version of Wikipedia making a claim and models are perfectly canon for minor references.

"Man Portable Lascannon: Built for war, lascannons use huge power packs that provide enough energy to punch holes in the thickest armour at even very long ranges. Lascannons also require seperate power packs, which is why they are often crewed by two or more people"

And before you yet again don't get the point: Fluff text is canon, its only the game rules that are not canon.


And since I am the better person, I am forwarding the bug report that came up twice while I attempted to post this.

[Gniops]

But the information on whether or not the Com Guards had reserve divislons in the Smoke Jaguar targets at the time the Jaguars landed are missing.

What ? No it bloody isn't.

In addition, Spanec, one of Ghost Bears target is explicitly NOT occupied by any divisions from the two armies fighting Ghost Bear, until later on, its actually part of why Ghost Bear took the city, they got to it before the Comguards could .

I'm suggesting it was probably SOP for all the Com Guard deployments to start off with at least a division in each city until enemy forces actually landing, based on the deployment the Nova Cats met when they came screaming right in.

I'm telling you outright that the sourcebooks contradict you.

Mainly the websites mentioned above.

Google and Wiki-fu is a massively shit way to debate anything, if these last few posts haven't taught you that, then nothing will I guess.

Hence why they are described as "at their most vulnerable" (to quote the Codex Titanicus fluff text again)

Because theres a Mech hiding under every rock to smite the Landing pods ?

Get fucking real, the longest ranged Laser has a range of less than a thousand metres, and these pods are going to be landing by the hundreds, along with heavily armed gunships.

Keep on pretending you didn't mention the Warlord titans smiting the drop pods as well ;)

Perhaps not as often or with the sort of total force commitment you describe, and it would probably come as a mild surprise, but you can bet that there will be about a division of mobile units, possibly more, along with any static air defenses the Comstars have.

Tell you what, I'll fucking say what mobile units will be in which city, since I actually know, and am not pulling it out of my ass.

As for static air defences, do you even know what Tukkyid was about ?

Tell me what static air defences there were in each city, sourced and quoted.

And being under fire from two hundred mechs will be much better?

Well, and this is just to start, most of these mechs will have weaponry that isn't any good beyond a thousand metres at most, meaning that for them to concentrate their fire into an effective AA barrage, most of these mechs are going to have to be standing really bloody close to the drop zone!

The marines wouldn't have a problem dropping into the teeth of the fire of 200 mechs mind. I should point out to you that the Comguards aren't like the Clans, each formation is explicitly described as using combined arms, so its not their most powerful units as well!

We also have the thrilling concept of......wait for it....changing targets during flight time! What can move faster I wonder ?

Its not like they have to move far is it, 40k small arms outrange Mech heavy weapons!

Thank you for the correction. I don't have the more recent rules on hand at the moment. As I've said before, I'm not an expert on WH40K - which is why I like your occasional visits to come argue with me about it.

You most certainly aren't an expert on Battle-tech either, or actual common sense, you tried to compare the physical proportions of a human being to the first edition Warlord Titan.

Now they mainly have to worry about being shot at,

As I've explained, probably not ;)

Sound reasonable?

Its one half-arsed bit of logic followed by another, so my answer would be "No, its sounds like you're daft".

Not only are you making completely baseless assumptions about location and capabilities for the Comguard units, you appear to be making up their unit composition as well.

The "hotdrop" with heat shields sounds a lot like the older drop pod descriptions from the Codex Titanicus to me. As I said, the BT people will not be unfamiliar with screaming pods from the sky that will disgorge enemies.

Couple of things here.

First, the Comguard formations near the cities or occupying them are Green, inexperienced, so they won't have seem much of any sort of combat, if any at all.

I don't think the Innersphere actually has the tech or wherewithal to perform hot-drops until the integration of Clan Technology, only the much slower and smaller style.

Those who have combat experience will have fought against the Clans, not other inner sphere factions, and according to the Comstar Sourcebook, the clans intially don't go for jump-jets on a lot of their mechs, meaning any hotdrops or drops there might have been will have been rare and limited in scale.

The whole "bid" process may have been a spectacularly stupid idea strategically

"may" have been stupid ? The only clan to take both their targets BANNED batchalls!

but the Imperium forces aren't engaging the Clans.

please don't pretend that the points about the Clan deployment are random interludes in this discussion, your misrepresentation and vague asspulling got corrected.

Nor would anybody say that the Clan mechs are not dangerous; poorly commanded, perhaps, and poorly deployed, perhaps, but quite dangerous war machines by BT standards.

Point to where I said anything about the Clans not being dangerous.

The deployment distances listed on that website, and the speeds listed in mech stat-blocks, which seem to be widely available online.

Since you've made some daft errors with these various websites and so forth you've cited, I think you need to provide something officially sourced.

Aerospace fighters are one of the reasons why the Clans mostly chose to drop further away.

Are they ? What tells you that ?

nor have I been talking about the aerospace fighters regarding the Space Marine drops.

Given that the drop-pods are probably moving faster than some of the weaponry mounted on aerospace fighters, I can imagine little difficulty wiht the drops, particularly with cover from T-hawks and the fleet of ships in orbit.

Otherwise I would be positing heavier casualties for the combat drops. Coming in with a division shooting up at your drop pods, plus any static defenses the Com Guards might have, is not great.

I don't think I need to repeat the problems with you positing anything about the drop assault casualties, theres a couple of legs missing from your argument.

Especially if one of those locations is, say, a munitions depot or headquarters.

I'm actually imagining an Inquisitor or Librarian ripping the mountain headquarters location out of some poor buggers brain, then a Deathstrike missile with a Vortex warhead being launched from the other side of the planet.

So was the original, right? Q-fiated trial by combat. Six essentially separate engagements, testing six different pieces of the Imperium war machine against the Comstar standard-bearers.

In the original combat, most of clans fought stupidly, the Imperium simply wouldn't send individual, wholly seperate forces in a planetary assault. The Clans didn't have to fight as individual formations, they just couldn't conceive of doing otherwise!

I think Comstar probably does have access to nuclear weapons, but I think rules of engagement barring nuclear weapons are appropriate. The goal is to take the cities, not destroy them.

You misunderstand, the Nuclear weapons are the only way Comstar has to equal the Ordinatus, their weaponry ranges from missiles to dismounted starship guns.

So how many shields on average are being raised? Are we talking about 1-6 (top weighted), or do the D6 rolls have a particular target to raise a shield, or what? I'm curious.

Roll a D6, get four, raise four shields.

It's a good thing they have. Because a gigawatt should not make a difference for a Titan scale plasma weapon.

It wouldn't make a damn bit of difference if they did, your analysis is one of the stupider things I've seen on the internet.

It's a very rough approximation.

Its raving madness, the thing has dense armour, metres thick for "skin" bundles of some unobtainum for musculature and a skeleton capable of supplying all that, as well as power source running on supercompressed stellar matter and exotic materials !

Never mind the actual proportions of the thing.

Bonded unobtanium? Actual term used?

tank Armour materials in 40k, ceramite, thermoplas, plasteel, adamantium, fibreweave, bendium, blah blah blah.

I'll put that one down as unclear, and revisit it if you change your mind about knowing why that posed a heat problem.

What is unclear here ? Mech gets splashed with burning fuel, and this is actually enough to overcome the heat dissipation of its radiators, and cause the mech to stop firing.

Mechs avoid forest fires because it overheats them!

Really?

Just think how that test might have gone if they built a tank with the technology ?

Shock regiments have also been known to use heavy tanks according to the Lexicanum.

Imperial Regiments operate in conjunction with others, formations are assembled from available forces to perform specific task, or fight in specific campaigns/engagements. The heavy armoured deployed with an Infantry division will almost certainly be seconded, not originally part of the formation.

They need a 30 ton vehicle per 12 groundpounders,

Chimeras are 38 tonnes when specced as an multilaser equipped APC.

So how many tons of vehicles would the average 6,000 strong (full complement) Cadian shock regiment have with them?

None, or up to every man in a tank I imagine, since Cadia doesn't produce just infantry regiments.

You did say grossly outnumbered, to be fair, and talked about tonnage re: the Imperial Guard in the same link. I'll hope you forgive me for connecting the two

My expectation are continually lowering, lets put it that way.

I was under the impression that Lascannons were some of the best crew-served (or Space Marine-wielded) ranged weapons for use against enemy armor units.

So ? It doesn't make them heavier than a defence laser or turbo-laser!

Which, given that BT armor is at least as hard to slag as steel, gives us around 600 megajoules to melt a half ton on the low end. Given that it's designed to resist these sorts of attacks, it could easily be up to twice that. I've read several threads on SB.com hashing over that figure.

The lascannon, you may remember, I ballparked many posts ago as being probably one order of magnitude better than a lasgun, which are generously placed at 19 megajoules.

Tell me again "how" you came to this ballpark figure ?

I recommend you examine the official battle armors listed on Chaosmarch.com. Almost all of them mount one or more lasers, and almost all, it appears, can take the 8-damage hit of the large BT laser. However, they only mount the small and medium lasers.

I recommend you realise that I'm talking about the fact that most of these battle armours are a ton or less, meaning a small laser is actually 50% of the weight of the entire suit.

The "half ton of armor melted" is neither unreasonable nor game mechanics, and remains a very adequate benchmark. It is that benchmark - not the details of game mechanics, or coming up with a conversion to illustrate that gap - that tells us BT stuff has in general more firepower and more durability than WH40K stuff of the same size.

Given the ablative nature of B-tech armour, it kinda is.

As far as your conclusion, let me point out a few tiny flaws.

Firstly, a small laser weighs half a ton, a man-pack lascannon, without gunnery guard or tripod, weights 55kg.

It has an extreme range of 120 metres, meaning its outranged by a freaking lasrifle, never mind the several thousand metres of a lascannon (Angels of Darkness)

That Large laser you've been spanking off about ? Its five tons, not including the heat sinks required for its operation, and has a maximum effect range of 900 metres IF its the Extended range version.

I think one of the SB.com threads mentioned something about game mechanics actually being the high canon of BT

FEEL THE AWESOME MIGHT OF BATTLE TECH GAME MECHANICS!

Bwahahahahaha.

Let me try this method of yours for sourcing things.

I think one of the SB.com threads mentioned something about the kilojoule range of smaller B-tech lasers. (I'm not actually taking the piss here)

The balance seems to be tipped the other way

In the strange alternate dimension we appear to have slipped into, yeah.

Pizza time.

[Gniops]

While I'm waiting for my Pizza, some swift comments on Spockies fuck-up with lasguns and lascannons

to the point where some novel authors actually "play" scenes to help them write them. Hence, a BT large laser melts a half ton in numerous descriptions.

Stackpole isn't a God to any Battle-tech player I know, and I think the Warsies probably take issue with his painstakingly derived computer game novels.

And how much stronger is the lascannon? Everything2.com says that all Imperium laser weapons take the same power packs. I assume that's recited from some scraped source that in turn cited some WH40K codex. I hear that lasguns get 50-60 shots per power pack, while lascannon eat a pack per shot.

This is completely incorrect, both the models and the background text show that Lascannons use larger power packs or run from different power sources. Tank mounted lascannons in fact run from a completely different type of power source, "phased crystalline" packs, as opposed to the smaller lasgun packs.

There are in fact several different versions of lasgun which can empty an entire supercharged power pack, as well as jury-rigged or poorly maintained lasguns discharging much larger portions of their battery (usually to the detriment of the user, or anyone standing nearby)

* High end: 50-60 shots x 19 megajoules per shot gives about a gigajoule. Which puts it within the range of yields for a BT large laser.

Kill Team, a crew served lascannon reduces a Tau battleSuit to a "ball of molten Slag". Crisis Suits are 2.5 tonnes, heavily armoured with "dense, resiliant armour".

Sons of Fenris, a power armoured marine is vapourised by a Lascannon hit, which reminds me of another quite old quote, where an extreme range lascannon shot hits a Marine and vapes his soft squishy body, leaving a superheated empty suit behind.

Lord of the Night, a lascannon fired into a crowd of carapace armoured troops cuts through them explosively, flinging body parts and blasting vaped flesh around generally,

Galaxy in Flames, a Lascannon blast again Vapes, (as in turns to vapour) most of an armoured space marine and continues on its merry way.

The weaker plasma guns repeatedly incinerate, blast into superheated steam, or whatever armoured humans.

These aren't megajoule range incidents.


So where are we after this ? A single crew served lascannon out ranges every Battlemech fielded barring those with the hyper rare artillery weapons, and is easily superior in firepower to a weapon system that is literally tons heavier, and requires multi-ton heat sinks, and if I'm not hallucinating due to exposure to the alien logic of SFJ, is "never" found on a mech of 40 tonnes or less.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Stop me there, but game mechanics can't be used in any way, but play figures can to prove the existence of special packs?

Seeing as how its a model of a Lascannon rather than abstract, simplistic numbers used to describe complex variables and I was using it to provide visual reference, and only game mechanics are not canon: Yes, quite obviously.

Even though there's no need to provide "proof" that lascannons don't use lasgun packs because its just one random twat on a crappy version of Wikipedia making a claim, I'm going to be the far better person and provide a quick blurb even though you won't find a depiction, reference or implication that they use lasgun packs outside of just one random twat on a crappy version of Wikipedia making a claim and models are perfectly canon for minor references.

So everything about game mechanics is dismissed, that's it?

"Man Portable Lascannon: Built for war, lascannons use huge power packs that provide enough energy to punch holes in the thickest armour at even very long ranges. Lascannons also require seperate power packs, which is why they are often crewed by two or more people"

And before you yet again don't get the point: Fluff text is canon, its only the game rules that are not canon.

Yet again? I never argued game Warhammer mechanics with you. But that's a good piec of text nonetheless.

[l33telboi]

When it comes to the age old game mechanics question, I tend to think of it in the following way: If it influences the actual gameplay even in the least, then it can't be considered valid because it's a game mechanic. No way to tell if it’s an accurate depiction of what happens or just balanced for fun gameplay. However, things that don't affect the gameplay in any way, like a model of a unit or a fluff description that has nothing to do with how the game is played, then it could naturally be held to be quite true.

Of course, from what I head of BTech, the novels are indeed written with game mechanics in mind, so in that case it might be a bit moot. Since novels repeat what’s said in the game rules.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It makes sense to have battle scenes in the books try to stay very close to the spirit of the game, it makes the game itself cooler, and you can sort of reenact certain sequences of major battles if you want, or you can get some heavily inspired stuff.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Stackpole isn't a God to any Battle-tech player I know, and I think the Warsies probably take issue with his painstakingly derived computer game novels.

And? They're still quite official.

Kill Team, a crew served lascannon reduces a Tau battleSuit to a "ball of molten Slag". Crisis Suits are 2.5 tonnes, heavily armoured with "dense, resiliant armour".

A "ball of molten slag" is not a completely melted suit. However, it would appear to be not far from the BT large laser, as probably a noticable fraction is melted to provide an outer melted surface.

Sons of Fenris, a power armoured marine is vapourised by a Lascannon hit, which reminds me of another quite old quote, where an extreme range lascannon shot hits a Marine and vapes his soft squishy body, leaving a superheated empty suit behind.

Lord of the Night, a lascannon fired into a crowd of carapace armoured troops cuts through them explosively, flinging body parts and blasting vaped flesh around generally,

Galaxy in Flames, a Lascannon blast again Vapes, (as in turns to vapour) most of an armoured space marine and continues on its merry way.

The weaker plasma guns repeatedly incinerate, blast into superheated steam, or whatever armoured humans.

These aren't megajoule range incidents.

Actually, vaporizing an average-sized human is 160 megajoules. Space Marines are a couple times larger (seven to eight feet tall), but vaporizing one (and not the armor, as in the "old" case you link to) is only several times greater.

In other words, these incidents, which involve mainly partial vaporization, are in the megajoule range. They might top out at close to a gigajoule...

... putting the lascannon on rough par with the BT large laser. Which, as I mentioned previously, would put the two sides close to evenly matched on the heavy tank level based on that benchmark.

In the mean time, the lasgun's actual effective yield is being outshined by a factor of twenty by its BT counterpart.

The massive power fist has a 1-8 megawatt disruption field. A ranger long rifle - several megajoules. A plasma pistol - 10 megajoules or so.

So where are we after this ? A single crew served lascannon out ranges every Battlemech fielded barring those with the hyper rare artillery weapons, and is easily superior in firepower to a weapon system that is literally tons heavier, and requires multi-ton heat sinks, and if I'm not hallucinating due to exposure to the alien logic of SFJ, is "never" found on a mech of 40 tonnes or less.

You are hallucinating, then. Check out the Wolfhound. 35 tons, large laser. Check out the Eagle, which is 25 tons, and has a large laser.

Because theres a Mech hiding under every rock to smite the Landing pods ?

Get fucking real, the longest ranged Laser has a range of less than a thousand metres, and these pods are going to be landing by the hundreds, along with heavily armed gunships.

Keep on pretending you didn't mention the Warlord titans smiting the drop pods as well ;)

And now I will point out some things that your google-fu has been too weak to uncover.

Weapons ranges are one of the things well established to be not necessarily literal in the version of the BT game you speak of - because the same weapons, in different game settings (such as the RPG and aerospace scales) have distinctly different ranges. Thus, canonical conflict. This is the root reason for the disagreement over the energy of kinetic weapons in BT, which I mentioned having noticed. It's a very substantial disagreement.

See, for example, this thread here. The opening post suggests that "extreme" range is a small fraction of hypothetical maximum range.

As is pointed out, the exact same weapons in different sub-systems have different ranges.

Tell you what, I'll fucking say what mobile units will be in which city, since I actually know, and am not pulling it out of my ass.

Check your temper, please. Concentrate on the topic at hand.

Well, and this is just to start, most of these mechs will have weaponry that isn't any good beyond a thousand metres at most, meaning that for them to concentrate their fire into an effective AA barrage, most of these mechs are going to have to be standing really bloody close to the drop zone!

Within a kilometer? That's not especially close.

Not only are you making completely baseless assumptions about location and capabilities for the Comguard units, you appear to be making up their unit composition as well.

Actually, we're given the fifty regiments (~5000 mechs) in the poem quoted on Everything.

Which in turn means an average of almost 1000 mechs in each of seven deployments. Since these are 1-2 army deployments, then it follows that much of the Com Guard's strength is in 'mechs.

I don't think the Innersphere actually has the tech or wherewithal to perform hot-drops until the integration of Clan Technology, only the much slower and smaller style.

You mentioned heat shields, and yet missed this.

Given that the drop-pods are probably moving faster than some of the weaponry mounted on aerospace fighters, I can imagine little difficulty wiht the drops, particularly with cover from T-hawks and the fleet of ships in orbit.

Dubious. Review Aerotech/Battlespace ranges. Those weapons move fast.

Roll a D6, get four, raise four shields.

Thank you.

Tell me again "how" you came to this ballpark figure ?

A notable lack of area blast effects attached to lascannon.

I recommend you realise that I'm talking about the fact that most of these battle armours are a ton or less, meaning a small laser is actually 50% of the weight of the entire suit.

Another thing you have missed: A small laser, in BT, does not actually mass a half ton. Check for threads on battle armor construction on BT discussion forums. You'll find the lower masses used for battle armor. The "half ton" includes whatever turrets, power routing, mounting, guidance system, etc.

Given the ablative nature of B-tech armour, it kinda is.

As far as your conclusion, let me point out a few tiny flaws.

Firstly, a small laser weighs half a ton, a man-pack lascannon, without gunnery guard or tripod, weights 55kg.

It has an extreme range of 120 metres, meaning its outranged by a freaking lasrifle, never mind the several thousand metres of a lascannon (Angels of Darkness)

That Large laser you've been spanking off about ? Its five tons, not including the heat sinks required for its operation, and has a maximum effect range of 900 metres IF its the Extended range version.

Effective range... for the purpose of ground gameplay. Meaning that it's expected to actually hit things a kilometer away, and also meaning that in other versions of the same game, it has a higher effective range. As I mentioned above, arguing absolute range limits regarding the BTverse is a complete wash - the same weapons have numerous contradictory ranges.

Nor, in the match we are concerned with, are open sightlines significantly longer than BT weapons ranges; nor, for that matter, is effective combat range that remarkable for WH40K weapons. In general, units engage each other at close range. Very close range. Ranges at which chainswords and power fists are important weapons.

A single crew served lascannon out ranges every Battlemech fielded barring those with the hyper rare artillery weapon

Please note that artillery is not "hyper rare." Especially on Tukayyid.

I'm not seeing that you have a particularly strong grasp on BT, or on quantifying yields from effect. If your sources indeed pan out (please dig up quotes if you can) then we can benchmark the lascannon as being close to the BT large laser. We've already benchmarked the lasgun as far below standard BT laser infantry weapons, however, which does not speak well for the guard.

Void shields still shine, of course, but short of that, right now, we're looking at standard IG infantry being sub-par by BT standards, and the tanks being pretty similar.

[Gniops]

And? They're still quite official.

I don't recall saying they aren't.

A "ball of molten slag" is not a completely melted suit. However, it would appear to be not far from the BT large laser, as probably a noticable fraction is melted to provide an outer melted surface.

A Crisis Suit does not in anyway resemble a ball, a significant portion of the suits weight, i.e. solid armoured leg and arms, the entire outer surface.

Actually, bugger that, its quite clear that the suit has been completely slagged.

In other words, these incidents, which involve mainly partial vaporization, are in the megajoule range. They might top out at close to a gigajoule...

You think a two and a half meter tall marine, enveloped in almost a ton of heat resistent armour requires barely a gigajoule to completely vapourise ?

... putting the lascannon on rough par with the BT large laser. Which, as I mentioned previously, would put the two sides close to evenly matched on the heavy tank level based on that benchmark.

since a Large laser hasn't been established as equalling even the small stuff i've posted about a lascannon, how do you figure that ?

In the mean time, the lasgun's actual effective yield is being outshined by a factor of twenty by its BT counterpart.

Small lasers are not, and have never been the "counterparts" of lasguns.

You are hallucinating, then. Check out the Wolfhound. 35 tons, large laser. Check out the Eagle, which is 25 tons, and has a large laser.

I can live with "rare" ;)

Weapons ranges are one of the things well established to be not necessarily literal in the version of the BT game you speak of - because the same weapons, in different game settings (such as the RPG and aerospace scales) have distinctly different ranges. Thus, canonical conflict. This is the root reason for the disagreement over the energy of kinetic weapons in BT, which I mentioned having noticed through my google-fu earlier.

Fortunately I'm not actually using google-fu. Go take a look at the Manticore tank you used as an entry, its PPC, which might even be an Extended range PPC has a maximum range of 500 odd metres, maybe 600 IIRC, an actual background text range, the projectile physically dissipates at that range, and presumably does so over the course of its flight.

Short range missile systems are explicitly described as having an effective range of 300 metres, not via hex measurements, but in the background information.

Tanks are nerfed as well in Battle-tech, despite logic dictating they should be the dominant weapons platform, it is not my problem that the facts don't jive with your requirements. Its not my problem that you don't think its logical based on the velocity of a gauss rifle or missiles, or whatever you've found on some other forum.

If you wish to claim extended ranges for Mech and ground unit weaponry, you need to provide evidence contradicting the actual background text of the rulebooks, countless novels and so on and so forth.

I will post the quotes when I get back home for the shortrange missile and the manticores PPC I think, just to nail this one home.

See, for example, this thread here. The opening post suggests that "extreme" range is a small fraction of hypothetical maximum range.

awesome, did you read the rest of the thread where people said exactly what I just said to you ?

I like the one where a poster...using the accuracy and shooting mechanics of an autocannon works out how impossible it would be to hit anything at 2000m, and he's being generous.

As is pointed out, the exact same weapons in different sub-systems have different ranges.

So what ? If you can't justify any claims for battle-tech ranges you might have, then the facts stand.

Check your temper, please. Concentrate on the topic at hand.

Ironically enough, you've completely avoided the point, I assume you are just going to continue arguing as though you haven't been contradicted by the facts on this point.

Within a kilometer? That's not especially close.

Let me try that.

Yes it really is, particularly when you've got to shoot hundreds of fast moving targets.

Actually, we're given the fifty regiments (~5000 mechs) in the poem quoted on Everything.

For the last time, Comguard armies aren't the pure mech forces of the Clans, they consist of combined arms forces.

You mentioned heat shields, and yet missed this.

What the hell are you talking about ?

Dubious. Review Aerotech/Battlespace ranges. Those weapons move fast.

Prove it. (gosh, that sounds familiar)

I'm getting pretty fed up of doing all the legwork here, while all you do is spam other peoples arguments, or make stuff up.

A notable lack of area blast effects attached to lascannon.

Is that it ? I can say the same for the Battle-tech lasers, I read a piece of b-tech fiction last night, which I shall probably reference in greater detail later, that has a Masakari shooting up some civilians at point blank range with its lasers, and basically scorching them to death. If it was firing something that could vapourise half a ton of heat resistent armour, then it should have quite literally "gibbed" them at a bare minimum, instead we get to see the horror of sliced open luggage, and partially burnt childrens toys.

That reminds me, a nice piece with a Gallowglass in, where its multiple large and pulse lasers manage about a ton of armour blasted off.

Another thing you have missed: A small laser, in BT, does not actually mass a half ton. Check for threads on battle armor construction on BT discussion forums. You'll find the lower masses used for battle armor. The "half ton" includes whatever turrets, power routing, mounting, guidance system, etc.

and yet you want to use the same capabilities of a Battle-mechs small laser per shot ? This is the same situation in B-tech with autocannons, caliber, rate of fire, ammunition can be different in exactly the same type of autocannon. Never mind the thing being physically smaller on an armour than it is on a mech.

The small laser of a Battlearmour probably fires repeatedly, or for longer to achieve the same result.

Effective range... for the purpose of ground gameplay. Meaning that it's expected to actually hit things a kilometer away

You can post whatever you want in this vein, I've got actually Battle-tech fluff numbers.

Nor, in the game we are concerned with, are open sightlines significantly longer than BT weapons ranges.

I disagree, case in point, shooting at Dropships and Pods, or engaging Titans, or actually any number of situations (who, as I'm sure you've carefully avoided reading about in codex titanicus, shoot stuff as it appears over the horizon.)

Please note that artillery is not "hyper rare." Especially on Tukayyid.

Please note that I explicitly said "battlemechs", not artillery in general, since you appear to think that the Comguards are the Clans.

I'm curious, is the way you snip quotes from sources and my posts deliberate, or just idle ?

I'm not seeing that you have a particularly strong grasp on BT,

Oh right, like you haven't been consistently wrong in this thread, are your feet wet ?

or on quantifying yields from effect.

I think I'd match my math's against yours most days of the week mate.

If your sources indeed pan out (please dig up quotes if you can

Spocky, when you decide that you can post quotes for the battle-tech stuff you are constantly referencing, get back to me.

then we can benchmark the lascannon as being close to the BT large laser

Already disproven.

We've already benchmarked the lasgun as far below standard BT laser infantry weapons, however, which does not speak well for the guard.

Unsupported and unproven.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Found a couple missing points worth replying to.

In the original combat, most of clans fought stupidly, the Imperium simply wouldn't send individual, wholly seperate forces in a planetary assault. The Clans didn't have to fight as individual formations, they just couldn't conceive of doing otherwise!

Such is the scenario. The six different formations are if anything competing with one another.

In addition, Spanec, one of Ghost Bears target is explicitly NOT occupied by any divisions from the two armies fighting Ghost Bear, until later on, its actually part of why Ghost Bear took the city, they got to it before the Comguards could .

The description I read on that one website said this:

At Spanac, the remnants of the Seventh Bear Guards and the Sixteenth Bear Dragoons linked up with elements of the Third Bear Cavalry that had been attempting to lay siege to the city. Knowing that the rest of the First and Fourth Armies were on the way, the Ghost Bears launched a furious offensive. Their attack unbalanced the ComStar forces, forcing them to give ground to Clan Ghost Bear while they attempted to regroup. Pressing their advantage, the Ghost Bears drove the First Com Guards into Spanac.

The other one said:

The Ghost Bears' Alpha Galaxy had Spanac under siege, and when the remnants of the Beta and Delta Galaxies arrived as support, the Clan forces pushed ComGuard's First Division back

Spanac being under siege implies there were Com Guard forces present in Spanac before the Ghost Bears took it. Please, by all means, explain why the city was "under siege" if it was unoccupied. The Ghost Bears clearly did not simply walk into unoccupied Spanac and plant a bear flag.

OK, I did manage to find a couple actual quotes describing a lascannon hit.
Your "Kill Team" quote:

Just then something flashes inside, through the opening: a bolt of light that catches one of the battle suits in mid-jump, turning it into a fiery ball of slag.

In the citation of it, I see nothing requiring this to be a crisis suit, which is the heaviest thing you can call a Tau battlesuit. Suits are rated class 1 through class 8, class 8 being crisis suit and class 1 being the basic Tau exoskeleton.

Note that a fiery ball of slag implies that the lascannon has caused something to burst into flame, e.g., ammunition or fuel or the Tau body itself.

On the plus side, if the ball of slag is in mid-air, it could have completely melted the suit - there's just the small problem that we might be dealing with a small suit or a big suit, and the additional problem that the target is providing energy towards its own destruction at this point.

That's one problem with organic targets and ammunition-carrying targets; burning organics and ammunition tend to provide a substantial amount of energy when mixed with oxygen and heated. A typical human body without additional fuel or ammunition has 12 kg of fat and 12 kg of protein, which is not a small amount of chemical energy. Once you've set the target on fire, all bets are off. This particular example is not very precise. It could be 50 megajoules; it could be 5 gigajoules.

Can you provide actual quotes for your other examples? I can't find other people citing them online.

I could find another lascannon incident, though:

Breiden opens up with the lascannon, a bolt of energy powerful enough to cripple battle tanks scoring a wound across the carnifex's armoured skull making thick, ,dark blood dribble down the exoskeleton of its body. The heavy bolter in Franz's squad kicks in, explosive shells rippling across legs as thick as tree trunks in a shower of detonations.

And fired again:

Once more its mouth opens for another terrifying roar, but Breiden picks his moment precisely, his aim guided by the Emperor I'm sure, and the next lascannon bolt lands in its mouth, smashing its head to a pulp, scattering fragments of skull across the courtyeard.

First hit, bloody wound. Doesn't even cauterize the wound effectively. A bolt of energy powerful enough to cripple battletanks - and yes, the lascannon is a powerful antitank weapon. This is confirmed yet again by that quote.

Second hit, blows up the skull of what basically amounts to a T-rex with biological exoskeletal armor. Low hundreds of megajoules is difficult to justify, this actually looks like a several-kg-of-TNT range incident.

I am not in the least bit convinced that a lascannon is more powerful than a BT large laser. While your incidents remain promising, I am not even sure it is more powerful than a BT small laser, which provides enough thermal energy to potentially completely vaporize a human-sized bag of water.

I also found a nice interesting quote regarding a tank gun:

When it fired, the breech of the main gun hurtled back into the turret space with one hundred and ninety tonnes of recoil force.

This is actually a very precise quantification of the muzzle energy of the gun, if we know the length of the tank barrel. Basic Newtonian mechanics: Recoil force is equal to the force on the bullet, force in a direction times the distance in that direction is equal to work done.

I'm going to guess 3.07 meters because of this website. This then gives a muzzle energy of 5.2 megajoules as the shell clears the barrel (pretty close to modern tank shells).

Given the shell is probably explosive, this doesn't tell us too much about the actual effective yield of the shell, but it may be a worthwhile point to consider if we move from thermal to kinetic weapons.

[l33telboi]

A Crisis Suit does not in anyway resemble a ball, a significant portion of the suits weight, i.e. solid armoured leg and arms, the entire outer surface.

I can't help but wonder why it would suddenly turn into a ball once it's been melted though. Melting something as irregular as a Crisis suit would take quite some time and effort, heat it too fast and it'll break apart through explosive vaporization, melt it too slow and it's splatter all over the place before turning into a ball.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I don't recall saying they aren't.

A Crisis Suit does not in anyway resemble a ball, a significant portion of the suits weight, i.e. solid armoured leg and arms, the entire outer surface.

See above post re: actual quote.

You think a two and a half meter tall marine, enveloped in almost a ton of heat resistent armour requires barely a gigajoule to completely vapourise ?

2.5 meters is 8.2 feet. Space Marines are generally described as 7-8 feet tall, and can be expected to be several times as massive as a human....

... and only one of the incidents you very loosely cited, without quoting, involved vaporizing a whole suit. See above post. From what I can actually see, there's nothing indicating lascannon have greater than gigajoule yield at the very most, and nothing you've actually quoted that rules out them only having a couple hundred megajoules.

The carnifex example especially suggests much lower yields.

Nor have I seen anything quantifying the mass of a Space Marine suit.

since a Large laser hasn't been established as equalling even the small stuff i've posted about a lascannon, how do you figure that ?

See above re: melting a half ton of armor.

Small lasers are not, and have never been the "counterparts" of lasguns.

BT infantry weapons. The ones dealing a fraction of a damage point, used by poor schmucks who run around trying not to get stepped on. 40-80 megajoules per shot.

I can live with "rare" ;)

Can you live with "common"? The UrbanMech and Panther both mount heavier weapons.

Fortunately I'm not actually using google-fu. Go take a look at the Manticore tank you used as an entry, its PPC, which might even be an Extended range PPC has a maximum range of 500 odd metres, maybe 600 IIRC, an actual background text range, the projectile physically dissipates at that range, and presumably does so over the course of its flight.

Short range missile systems are explicitly described as having an effective range of 300 metres, not via hex measurements, but in the background information.

Tanks are nerfed as well in Battle-tech, despite logic dictating they should be the dominant weapons platform, it is not my problem that the facts don't jive with your requirements. Its not my problem that you don't think its logical based on the velocity of a gauss rifle or missiles, or whatever you've found on some other forum.

If you wish to claim extended ranges for Mech and ground unit weaponry, you need to provide evidence contradicting the actual background text of the rulebooks, countless novels and so on and so forth.

I will post the quotes when I get back home for the shortrange missile and the manticores PPC I think, just to nail this one home.

awesome, did you read the rest of the thread where people said exactly what I just said to you ?

I like the one where a poster...using the accuracy and shooting mechanics of an autocannon works out how impossible it would be to hit anything at 2000m, and he's being generous.

He's not, actually, being generous.

I have read the rest of the thread. Like many of the brighter posters, I find it an interesting conundrum. However, it's not particularly relevant in this scenario. And are we going to see anything engage at 2000m, outside of [maybe] the Titan matchup? No.

And did you see the point where the same exact weapons, under RPG rules and AT rules, have dramatically different ranges? Or the point about what ranges WH40K units regularly engage? In the BattleMech scale rules, a rifle has a range of 60 meters. No joke! In the RPG, the full effective range of a rifle is hundreds of meters. The machine gun mounted on battle armor has a range of 1/2/3/4 hexes, meaning "extreme" range is 120 meters, in BattleTech; in Mechwarrior 3rd edition, the same weapon has a 45/100/250/625 meter range. The "semi-portable PPC" has 60/225/475/1,200 meters of range - over twice the mech-combat range of the standard PPC, which outranges it by a factor of two! All weapons are like that - much higher ranges in the RPG.

The "small laser" you so deride? That goes to "support laser," a weapon too large for an individual infantryman to carry, but which battle armor can carry. It has an extreme range of 1500 meters.

Clearly the short ranges you speak of are partially artifacts of the system. If you want to explain them, we would have to come to the conclusion that only a very little bit of dispersion or atmospheric slowing brings lasers/bullets below the energy density needed to hurt battlemech armor... or we can simply state that PPCs rated for 540 meters "long range" in the 'mech scale system have multi-km ranges under other circumstances, and push the whole weapons range issue off to the side.

Standard engagement ranges for Warhammer forces is much shorter than 500m. We're talking about a battlefield where ogres with clubs get to engage APCs and tanks.

So what ? If you can't justify any claims for battle-tech ranges you might have, then the facts stand.

So the PPC also has a range of hundreds of kilometers. Etc.

Ironically enough, you've completely avoided the point, I assume you are just going to continue arguing as though you haven't been contradicted by the facts on this point.

If you actually have hard data on Com Guard deployments as of the moment the Clans dropped, you're welcome to actually cite it. Complaining and cursing doesn't constitute an argument.

Let me try that.

Yes it really is, particularly when you've got to shoot hundreds of fast moving targets.

"Target rich environment" means never having to own up to hitting the wrong enemy target.

For the last time, Comguard armies aren't the pure mech forces of the Clans, they consist of combined arms forces.

Combined arms... but the main strength, as in all BT armies, is in the mech part of it.

What the hell are you talking about ?

BT mechs can be dropped with heat shields on. You mentioned this, even.

Prove it. (gosh, that sounds familiar)

17-18 km space hexes x 20 hex long range standard weapons (LRMs, PPCs) = 350 km. The timescale on the space combat system is one minute. Ergo, we're talking something like 6 km/s minimum speed.

Is that it ? I can say the same for the Battle-tech lasers, I read a piece of b-tech fiction last night, which I shall probably reference in greater detail later, that has a Masakari shooting up some civilians at point blank range with its lasers, and basically scorching them to death. If it was firing something that could vapourise half a ton of heat resistent armour, then it should have quite literally "gibbed" them at a bare minimum, instead we get to see the horror of sliced open luggage, and partially burnt childrens toys.

By all means, quote. However, you do not dispute the melting of a half ton of armor being on the very highest level of BT, from which comes the necessity of a BT large laser being 600-1200 MJ or so.

and yet you want to use the same capabilities of a Battle-mechs small laser per shot ? This is the same situation in B-tech with autocannons, caliber, rate of fire, ammunition can be different in exactly the same type of autocannon. Never mind the thing being physically smaller on an armour than it is on a mech.

The small laser of a Battlearmour probably fires repeatedly, or for longer to achieve the same result.

Or the 200 kg weapon is roughly the same as the 500 kg weapon, it's just that it's being aimed "by hand" instead of having a separate turret, a tracking system, long power feeds, et cetera.

Are they all the exact same model? No. Are they all capable of putting out several hundred megajoules of thermal energy? Yes.

I disagree, case in point, shooting at Dropships and Pods, or engaging Titans, or actually any number of situations (who, as I'm sure you've carefully avoided reading about in codex titanicus, shoot stuff as it appears over the horizon.)

The titans are a whole different case from WH40K conventional forces.

Please note that I explicitly said "battlemechs", not artillery in general, since you appear to think that the Comguards are the Clans.

I'm curious, is the way you snip quotes from sources and my posts deliberate, or just idle ?

I reply to arguments, generally.

Oh right, like you haven't been consistently wrong in this thread

I'm not the one who has claimed - several times - that the actual official battle armor designs are impossible.

I think I'd match my math's against yours most days of the week mate.

Consider carefully the fact that none of the examples you've given involve inert objects, and that you haven't even tried to run figures.

Unsupported and unproven.

I demonstrated this thoroughly. We have roughly 75-150 joules to melt 1/16th of one metric ton of armor, based on the fact that it shouldn't be any less thermally resistant than steel. We have 1/32 ton of armor drilled per hit by BT laser infantry weapons.

Ergo, 40-80 MJ for the BT infantry laser in a damage system which is very well recycled in most BT fluff and novels. Which is greater than even the highest claimed lasgun yields (19 MJ/shot) by a factor of 2-4. Compared to, say, NecronLord's estimations of actual lasgun yield, a factor of 20-40.

This is a valid argument, and you haven't even attempted to address it. You've simply digressed into talking about ranges. As I've pointed out, in Warhammer, ogres with spikey clubs are somehow viable and can survive to engage the enemy. In Warhammer, chainswords and powerfists are really good weapons.

These are not armies that stand off kilometers away and pick off targets with super-accurate long ranged fire... although they're fighting a BT force that actually uses over-the-horizon artillery extensively.

[Gniops]

Such is the scenario. The six different formations are if anything competing with one another.

I'm pretty sure I've already addressed them all as individuals anyway.

Please, by all means, explain why the city was "under siege" if it was unoccupied. The Ghost Bears clearly did not simply walk into unoccupied Spanac and plant a bear flag.

The Ghost Bears "drive" the shattered remnants of the 91st Division before them according to the Tukkyid sourcebook, and they "fail to achieve a proper defensive position"

In the citation of it, I see nothing requiring this to be a crisis suit, which is the heaviest thing you can call a Tau battlesuit. Suits are rated class 1 through class 8, class 8 being crisis suit and class 1 being the basic Tau exoskeleton.

Fortunately I possess the novel, the battlesuits in question were the personal bodyguard of the Tau commander the Last Chancers were sent to assassinate. Unless something has drastically changed in Tau background, Tau Commanders don't have some unknown smaller suits equipped with jump-packs and multiple weapons in use by their bodyguards, they have Crisis teams.

Note that a fiery ball of slag implies that the lascannon has caused something to burst into flame, e.g., ammunition or fuel or the Tau body itself.

Makes no real difference.

On the plus side, if the ball of slag is in mid-air, it could have completely melted the suit - there's just the small problem that we might be dealing with a small suit or a big suit, and the additional problem that the target is providing energy towards its own destruction at this point.

The only way we are dealing with a small suit is if by some odd leap of logic, a pupil of commander Farsight decided to go against every jot of Tau military doctrine and NOT equip his personal bodyguard/Crisis Team with fucking Crisis suits.

Unless you've got some indepth knowledge to reveal, concerning another large flying battlesuit with multiple weapon systems. Not to mention one of the Last Chancers actually gets inside one, then gets cremated by its security systems, without destroying the suit mind. Hardly likely this suit is contributing much to its own demise!

As for its own weapon systems causing the damage, just previously the Team is assaulted by a Deathwatch marine, and multiple weapon systems are destroyed, one even exploding on the Crisis suits, including a flamer and an energy cannon. The Suits aren't destroyed, they don't even lose the limbs.

Can you provide actual quotes for your other examples? I can't find other people citing them online.

I could find another lascannon incident, though:

Of a lascannon shooting at a Carnifex......

- and yes, the lascannon is a powerful antitank weapon. This is confirmed yet again by that quote.

Where did I imply otherwise ?

Second hit, blows up the skull of what basically amounts to a T-rex with biological exoskeletal armor. Low hundreds of megajoules is difficult to justify, this actually looks like a several-kg-of-TNT range incident.

Tyranids are classic scifi organictech, stupidly resilient. They possess high density endo+exoskeletons, their fluids contain cysts of "astonishingly high" thermal capacity gel.

Bad example.

I am not even sure it is more powerful than a BT small laser, which provides enough thermal energy to potentially completely vaporize a human-sized bag of water.

Human sized bag of water versus actual human enclosed in thermally resistent armour...

What the hell ?

2.5 meters is 8.2 feet. Space Marines are generally described as 7-8 feet tall, and can be expected to be several times as massive as a human....

The Deathwatcher in kill team is explicitly described as as 2.5 metres tall.

... and only one of the incidents you very loosely cited, without quoting,

I actually mentioned a source for my quotes, what was the source for the Large laser tonnage damage ?

and only one of the incidents you very loosely cited, without quoting, involved vaporizing a whole suit.

I guess that lascannons couldn't possibly have managed it then.

See above re: melting a half ton of armor

Maybe you'd care to even source this ?

an you live with "common"? The UrbanMech and Panther both mount heavier weapons.

Heavy lasers are "common" on 40 ton mechs now ?

And are we going to see anything engage at 2000m, outside of [maybe] the Titan matchup? No.

What, because you say so ?

Or the point about what ranges WH40K units regularly engage?

What point, you just decided that 40k armour engages at the smaller ranges of Battle-tech

The machine gun mounted on battle armor has a range of 1/2/3/4 hexes, meaning "extreme" range is 120 meters, in BattleTech; in Mechwarrior 3rd edition, the same weapon has a 45/100/250/625 meter range. The "semi-portable PPC" has 60/225/475/1,200 meters of range - over twice the mech-combat range of the standard PPC, which outranges it by a factor of two! All weapons are like that - much higher ranges in the RPG.

For all your posting, you just can't come up with anything to contradict me with can you ?

Clearly the short ranges you speak of are partially artifacts of the system. If you want to explain them, we would have to come to the conclusion that only a very little bit of dispersion or atmospheric slowing brings lasers/bullets below the energy density needed to hurt battlemech armor.

Maximum tech actually includes rules for atmospheric dissipation of energy weapons, as for artifacts of the system being an explaination for short ranges.

Clearly the points are as well, you can't pick and choose which portions of the rules to disregard

or we can simply state that PPCs rated for 540 meters "long range" in the 'mech scale system have multi-km ranges under other circumstances, and push the whole weapons range issue off to the side.

Thats interesting, we just ignore weapon range.

Standard engagement ranges for Warhammer forces is much shorter than 500m. We're talking about a battlefield where ogres with clubs get to engage APCs and tanks.

I think you'll find that targets that don't mass in the tens of tons can take advantage of terrain with much greater ease than Mechs.

So the PPC also has a range of hundreds of kilometers. Etc.

Um, no.

If you actually have hard data on Com Guard deployments as of the moment the Clans dropped, you're welcome to actually cite it. Complaining and cursing doesn't constitute an argument.

Neither does pulling numbers out of your arse. If you don't have the information to back up your claims don't make them.

BT mechs can be dropped with heat shields on. You mentioned this, even.

So ? I'm not sure where you are going with this, found another little titbit in Battleforce though,

By all means, quote. However, you do not dispute the melting of a half ton of armor being on the very highest level of BT, from which comes the necessity of a BT large laser being 600-1200 MJ or so.

Actually I do, if firing even small lasers at civilians at point blank range results in merely merely fried humans, not vapourised ones, then as I said, destroying armour doesn't mean its been completely stripped from that target location, it means its been compromised to the extent of uselessness.

Or the 200 kg weapon is roughly the same as the 500 kg weapon, it's just that it's being aimed "by hand" instead of having a separate turret, a tracking system, long power feeds, et cetera.

Individual lasers don't have tracking systems, the battlemech sensors and fire control are generally centralised, nor are there seperate "turrets", go look at the mech designs.

What you are arguing for is 300kg worth of powerfeeds it would seem, as opposed to a smaller weapon.

Are they all the exact same model? No. Are they all capable of putting out several hundred megajoules of thermal energy? Yes.

A ten megawatt laser could put out several hundred megajoules of energy if it fired long enough.

The titans are a whole different case from WH40K conventional forces.

Certainly, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on why the 40k forces aren't going to engage at longer ranges with their much more capable guns..

I reply to arguments, generally.

Not what I asked.

I'm not the one who has claimed - several times - that the actual official battle armor designs are impossible

To claim that their weaponry is equal is logically impossible, the heatsinks and reactors that allow the output and rate of fire of Battle-mech mounted guns actually outmass the suits the Comguard will be using.

Consider carefully the fact that none of the examples you've given involve inert objects, and that you haven't even tried to run figures.

I don't have to in this instance, the facts speak for themselves, and the numbers you come up with are debunked not on their maths generally, but on the logic you use to arrive at them.

I demonstrated this thoroughly. We have roughly 75-150 joules to melt 1/16th of one metric ton of armor, based on the fact that it shouldn't be any less thermally resistant than steel. We have 1/32 ton of armor drilled per hit by BT laser infantry weapons.

See above

Ergo, 40-80 MJ for the BT infantry laser in a damage system which is very well recycled in most BT fluff and novels.

Do you have any novel or non games-mechanic derived evidence to support your claim of 40-80 mj for a BT infantry laser ?

40 years before Tukkyid, infantry laser rifles were 5 megawatt range, and you want me to assume that the technologically stagnent Inner Sphere produced weaponry eight or 16 times this ?

Never mind you still haven't nailed down Large lasers as actually melting half a ton!

This is a valid argument, and you haven't even attempted to address it. You've simply digressed into talking about ranges.

Range is fairly important in combat, although you don't seem to believe this is the case, weirdly.

As I've said, it simply isn't a valid argument.

As I've pointed out, in Warhammer, ogres with spikey clubs are somehow viable and can survive to engage the enemy

As I've pointed out, you don't seem to grasp how what amounts to large infantry blokes getting into combat with close combat doesn't automagically mean the rest of the galaxy is forced to engage like that.

In Warhammer, chainswords and powerfists are really good weapons.

In warhammer, a Knife is a really good weapon if you happen to be standing next to a bloke while you use it. The existence of cannon fodder infantry in 40k doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the range of a lascannon, or the willingness of its operator to use it.

Thankfully I'm not stupid enough to have claimed that game-mechanics make for the most pertinent and high ranking source of evidence, so I don't have to deal with the shorter ranges of 40k based on the scale of models, although Epics scale makes for some laughs in that regard.

These are not armies that stand off kilometers away and pick off targets with super-accurate long ranged fire... although they're fighting a BT force that actually uses over-the-horizon artillery extensively.

I'm not sure how seriously I'm meant to be taking this, Ogryns get into close combat, and that means that warhammer armies always fight in close.

Every army you've listed has tube/rocket artillery as part of its arsenal, barring the Ogrynsm and debatably the Sororitas and long range fire support is a fact of life in 40k, as well as stupendously long range weaponry.