C&C3 vs. Battletech

[Jedi Master Spock]

LOL. And they call me a fanatic? The Heavy Gauss Rifle here is UTTERLY different from the Gauss Rifle from space............... To the extent that NO aerospace unit carries the Battlemech equivalent.
Why not just use the Gauss rifle round at Mach 5? Of course, you won't wanna use that since that exists in outlier fluff, while novels and sourcebooks and even TROs establish the Mach 2.2 figure. Similarly, ground units may simply use different round speed, which incidently explains away the disparity between Mach 5 and 2.2.

The Mach 2.2 figure is, AFAIK, present in one TRO. It contradicts a very large body of evidence, and isn't remotely logical. A kinetic weapon is going to have to be faster than a regular bullet to have equivalent or superior performance to a similarly sized HEAT/HEAP type round.

The Mach 5 figure I eagerly await your source for. I also would like to know how you feel it overrides the description of the gauss rifle repeated in a number of source materials, including the BattleTech Compendium and the BattleTech Master Rules.

[Trinoya]

Yikes! I miss LB already!

Do we actually SEE this? Elementals can survive hits from an IS PPC, but that's the heaviest weapon they can actually survive from. More importantly, their 90m jump range isn't significantly longer than Zone Troopers range.

Did you actually read my later post where I gave all the technical book listings? You do understand the entire point of the battlearmor suits for infantry is so they have a chance, however small it is, of surviving hits from these weapons? This is their sole purpose for existing. The primary point is that this is the upper limit... no higher... which means as you get into lower caliber weapons, say... the rail guns of GDI zone troopers, you suddenly have significantly higher odds of survival...

Secondly. There are numerous elemental configurations, including those that can stay airborne as long as their power holds out... your 90m point is, as they say, pointless.

The fact that GDI can field an entire corps in battle means that their numbers, both infantry and tank outnumber the entire invading clans frontline touman. We don't know the extent of their forces, but there is no reason to disbelieve that GDI doesn't outnumber the entire Clans frontline forces.

*blink blink* Did you just honestly say that because they can field around 60,000 (low end) to 300,000 (high end) soldiers that they can outnumber a clan army of millions?

Anyway, there is a reason to believe that they do not outnumber clan frontline forces. They are supported by only 20% of earths surface. That means the entire population of GDI is located on exactly 20% of earth... soldier, civilian, or other.

The last time the clan utilized front line forces it outnumbered the population of numerous planets... it was a little thing called the clan wars..

But hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... Give me some numbers here. I want a number, and I want the evidence behind that number... How many soldiers and tanks does GDI have. How many are equiped with rail guns. How many are zone troopers. Start providing it... because as it stands I don't think the number you are looking for exist.

If we use "game rules", said PPC is unable to destroy a wooden structure. Well, the IS equivalent isn't. More importantly, JMS conclusions is utterly unfounded. An more accurate reading of the quote is that the PPC blast smashed and scattered melted glass across the street. If anything, that's actually a LOWER yield of PPC firepower.
We can measure the effects of the PPC and its quite considerable, but the pecularities of Battletech armour means that Elementals can still be highly vulnerable to low end attacks.

First, how great is it that the first post prevented me from using game rules, oh and prevented you too. So, now that we are ignoring your wooden structure point we can move on.

Next: Of course they are vulnerable to low end attacks. Even the MMKII was vulnerable to low end attacks. Even the zone trooper is vulnerable to low end attacks... there is nothing in either universe that isn't. The point being made was that clan STANDARD infantry is less vulnerable than GDI or Nod standard infantry... which, ohmygodlookatthat, it is.

No, it FUCKING does not. The weapon doesn't use dice for damage, save for the RPG variant. And in that case, I would argue that the RPG firepower has been dialed down, but that's an argument between me and Cray which I lost because of the pecularities of scaling between multiple game systems.
It is possible to get 1-2 GJ firepower for PPCs, but that's using high end and unverifiable numbers such as the vapourisation of carbon and etc.

Oh whoa, way to utilize my out of debate context in the debate. I was quietly referencing the dice as a joke. But if you are so intent on being a total jerk here I'll treat you the same.

It is a variable firepower figure because the PPC is a lightning weapon, meaning that structures hardened against its specific effects do in fact take less damage. Objects, like people, who are unshielded, turn to GAS.

Hey, guess what, that's a low end gigajoule effect. And guess what, that's not a high end effect of the weapon. That's the common effect of the weapon.

No. The Elemental cannot survive a direct hit from a gauss rifle.

Holy crap, did I ever say a direct hit? No, I believe I said glancing blows... near hits, etc. Oh look at that, I did. I did however say they could take direct hits from mech weapons... and will you look at that, that is the reason they exist! Now, newbie, I don't know what your problem is, but old Dr. Cox here is going to prescribe you take a chill pill, relax, and recognize that fact.

Yup. Your armour is also vulnerable to grenade launchers and VLAWs. Hell, Clantroops actually establish that gyrojet rifles can damage Elemental armour.

Yes, because GDI fields Gyrojet rifl- oh wait, no they don't.

3 shots not to mention the least, although there could had been prior damage........ not so bad since Battletroops establish that the rifle platoon actually do contain heavy assault rifles, this as opposed to the Battletechnology and commonly held assumption that its consist of heavy gyrojet rifles, VLAWs and AT rifles.

Yup, because regular GDI infantry carry all of these weap- oh wait, no they don't. They carry the GD-2 which is only effective at short ranges... Where as elementals engage at significantly longer ranges than the GDI short range... which is... oh yeah, local engagement... IE: street fighting.

Now sure, if they get their grenade launcher to hit, its going to do some damage... but odds are it isn't going to kill the soldier. It might, but most likely it won't.


Quote:
while light mechs are generally lightly armored fast moving support units for scouting, networking, and general guard duty.

Which light mechs are you referring to? The 10 tonners, or the category of light mechs ranging from 20-40 tons? If its the former, they're restricted solely to guard duty and other specialised purposes, mostly paramilitary.

Wait a second... I just said that light mechs are utilized for special duties and you respond, "what are you refering too... the restricted ones used for specialized duties?" Not only does that make no sense because we are referring to clans here... but frankly I didn't even follow your statement.

Specifically I'm referring to the 20-40ton range of mechs that the Clans used for scouting during the clan wars, as well as networking and guard duty... you do realize they have over a hundred light mech designs for this, or do you really want me to list them all.

I figured this would be obvious, of course, since I am debating the Clans vs C&C earth and not random battletech cooperate organization number 4 vs C&C earth.

LOL. And they call me a fanatic?

I don't call you a fanatic. I call you misinformed.

The Heavy Gauss Rifle here is UTTERLY different from the Gauss Rifle from space

The HGR I referenced and used is a standard 200mm clan based HGR placed into a vacuum to see the exact effects, speed, etc so I would have a basis to work off of for my 12km figure. I then informed everyone, as you apparently missed, that it becomes less effective in atmosphere obviously. You have now turned around and said I don't know what I'm talking about and am using an utterly different gauss rifle, which is not what I did at all, and frankly have begun talking out your ass. First and foremost, if I used a regular space based gauss rifle, or dear god, the naval based guass rifles, we would be getting significantly larger numbers that couldn't even be carried by mechs on a planet with earth based gravity, because frankly, mechs don't shoot shells the size of bloody mechs.

JMS has dealt with the rest of your post in better words than I would have used.

[PainRack]

The Mach 2.2 figure is, AFAIK, present in one TRO.

One TRO, two sourcebooks and a plethora of novels. Actually, it may even be two TRO, but I don't bother to keep track anymore.

It contradicts a very large body of evidence, and isn't remotely logical. A kinetic weapon is going to have to be faster than a regular bullet to have equivalent or superior performance to a similarly sized HEAT/HEAP type round.

What large body of evidence? You forgot. Mech armour is penetrable by GYROJET rifles........... excuse me, since battletroops actually establish the battle order of rifle platoons. heavy assault rifles, backed up by LAWs and recoiless rifles.

The Mach 5 figure I eagerly await your source for.

Its Patrick Battletech website.

I also would like to know how you feel it overrides the description of the gauss rifle repeated in a number of source materials, including the BattleTech Compendium and the BattleTech Master Rules.

Errr.......... say what?

Did you actually read my later post where I gave all the technical book listings? You do understand the entire point of the battlearmor suits for infantry is so they have a chance, however small it is, of surviving hits from these weapons?

And guess what? The heaviest weapon hit Elementals can survive, is an IS PPC. Not Gauss rifles or AC/20s. Only assault armour can survive a hit from a Gauss rifle/CLan ERPPC.

This is their sole purpose for existing. The primary point is that this is the upper limit... no higher... which means as you get into lower caliber weapons, say... the rail guns of GDI zone troopers, you suddenly have significantly higher odds of survival...

And due to the nature of Battletech armour, said armour is penetrable by Gryojet rifles, Grenade launchers and infinitely lighter weapons.........

Secondly. There are numerous elemental configurations, including those that can stay airborne as long as their power holds out... your 90m point is, as they say, pointless.

The slyph has a much longer range, but it can't stay up in the air infinitely. and of course, since you ARE talking about Elementals and not the Slyph, your point is ludricious.

*blink blink* Did you just honestly say that because they can field around 60,000 (low end) to 300,000 (high end) soldiers that they can outnumber a clan army of millions?

lolcat! The clan frontline forces numbers in the thousands of units ONLY. The only possible way you can reach millions is if you include the paramilitary forces and they're armed with freaking shotguns and light combat armour......... if THAT.

Anyway, there is a reason to believe that they do not outnumber clan frontline forces. They are supported by only 20% of earths surface. That means the entire population of GDI is located on exactly 20% of earth... soldier, civilian, or other.

And? The Tiberium novels establish that GDI can deploy a corps of troops. McNeil is in charge of a division. A corps of troops outnumber the entire invading Clans frontline forces.

The last time the clan utilized front line forces it outnumbered the population of numerous planets... it was a little thing called the clan wars..

Source? Jade Falcons, one of the stronger clans have 18 galaxies, of which IIRC 6 were frontline, prior to Tukayid and losses.

But hey, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... Give me some numbers here. I want a number, and I want the evidence behind that number... How many soldiers and tanks does GDI have. How many are equiped with rail guns. How many are zone troopers. Start providing it... because as it stands I don't think the number you are looking for exist.

The fact that the Tiberium novel establish a corps of troops? And that using conventional numerology, that's 3 divisions of troops and 9 brigades? Granted, we don't know how large said division and brigade is, but that's still tens of thousands of soldiers..... Even the Bear Claw Galaxy has only a thousand plus elementals.

First, how great is it that the first post prevented me from using game rules, oh and prevented you too. So, now that we are ignoring your wooden structure point we can move on.

Next: Of course they are vulnerable to low end attacks. Even the MMKII was vulnerable to low end attacks. Even the zone trooper is vulnerable to low end attacks... there is nothing in either universe that isn't. The point being made was that clan STANDARD infantry is less vulnerable than GDI or Nod standard infantry... which, ohmygodlookatthat, it is.

And said Clan "standard" infantry is so freaking outnumbered, and STILL vulnerable that its not funny. Not to mention they're still as vulnerable to tanks as they are in the btech universe.

It is a variable firepower figure because the PPC is a lightning weapon, meaning that structures hardened against its specific effects do in fact take less damage. Objects, like people, who are unshielded, turn to GAS.

THe PPC damage comes from two components, its kinetic and heating effect. IOW, the amount of freaking energy it has. Whether or not a target is electrically shielded or not has miminal bearing. Its STILL CoE.
SO guess what? its NOT variable.

Holy crap, did I ever say a direct hit? No, I believe I said glancing blows... near hits, etc. Oh look at that, I did.

Which makes........... no difference whatsoever.

I did however say they could take direct hits from mech weapons... and will you look at that, that is the reason they exist! Now, newbie, I don't know what your problem is, but old Dr. Cox here is going to prescribe you take a chill pill, relax, and recognize that fact.

And? They're still vulnerable to GDI weaponery.... You know...

Yes, because GDI fields Gyrojet rifl- oh wait, no they don't.

Other than the fact that this means that ELementals are still vulnerable to GDI weaponery....................

Yup, because regular GDI infantry carry all of these weap- oh wait, no they don't. They carry the GD-2 which is only effective at short ranges... Where as elementals engage at significantly longer ranges than the GDI short range... which is... oh yeah, local engagement... IE: street fighting.

The Elementals max range is 600m....... That's freaking equivalent to the GDI forces.

Wait a second... I just said that light mechs are utilized for special duties and you respond, "what are you refering too... the restricted ones used for specialized duties?" Not only does that make no sense because we are referring to clans here... but frankly I didn't even follow your statement.

Because said light mechs are not FAST moving. 5- 10 ton mechs have a speed of roughly 50-80kph, and that's the higher end of speed.

Specifically I'm referring to the 20-40ton range of mechs that the Clans used for scouting during the clan wars, as well as networking and guard duty... you do realize they have over a hundred light mech designs for this, or do you really want me to list them all.

Except that Light Mechs don't do GUARD DUTY.... Which was why I asked you to specify. Not in the CLans anyway.

The HGR I referenced and used is a standard 200mm clan based HGR placed into a vacuum to see the exact effects, speed, etc so I would have a basis to work off of for my 12km figure.

Except that
1. THat's not the HGR. The HGR is the Steiner owned property.
2. Which variant are you using to calculate space? Cause, again, the HGR is not deployable for space combat.

Of course, if you were properly using terms throughout the debate, we won't be having this argument.
From variable firepower, to light mech definition to Heavy Gauss Rifle.

[Trinoya]

And guess what? The heaviest weapon hit Elementals can survive, is an IS PPC. Not Gauss rifles or AC/20s. Only assault armour can survive a hit from a Gauss rifle/CLan ERPPC.

And guess what, I keep saying glancing blows from gauss rifles, don't I. And yes, it DOES matter because a glancing blow from a guass rifle means it hit the tree next to you.

It doesn't matter since GDI infantry and tanks don't field weapons on par with a PPC anyway so until you can find a point that makes the common elementals (and lets not even get into the uncommon battlearmors that other people make use of)

And due to the nature of Battletech armour, said armour is penetrable by Gryojet rifles, Grenade launchers and infinitely lighter weapons.........

Which it has been established GDI common infantry isn't fielding gyroget rifles. They are fielding a short range high caliber weapon that will not even be able to shoot back when elementals open fire on them. Even your zone troopers, the only infantry that even stood a chance in this fight, are few and far between in comparison. In fact it is stated that the cost of equipping one zone trooper with armor and his rail gun is worth an entire rifleman squad.

Secondly: Yes, any weapon can get 'lucky' and defeat armor... I already admitted this point and said the same thing about GDI forces... ANYONE can get lucky.

The slyph has a much longer range, but it can't stay up in the air infinitely. and of course, since you ARE talking about Elementals and not the Slyph, your point is ludricious.

Except that the Slyph is a standard battle armor of the elementals! Specifically in heavy use come 3060! You forget that any armor the elementals field is part of the elemental logistical base and therefore available. Not that they need any thing other than standard elemental armor to defeat GDI.

lolcat! The clan frontline forces numbers in the thousands of units ONLY. The only possible way you can reach millions is if you include the paramilitary forces and they're armed with freaking shotguns and light combat armour......... if THAT.

You either haven't read any of the clan war novels or bothered to remember anything about them. The 'thousands' of units in the front line forces I think you are referring to would be the tens of thousands of mechs that the clans threw into the fray. These mechs were supported by hundreds of thousands of infantry of varying types, who were then supported by the elementals. The forces they were going up against fielded hundreds of thousands of tanks, helicopters, jets, tens of thousands of mechs, and hundreds of thousands of infantry.

Or did you just forget about the entire clan war...

And? The Tiberium novels establish that GDI can deploy a corps of troops. McNeil is in charge of a division. A corps of troops outnumber the entire invading Clans front line forces.

And you still havn't proven that clan front line forces are that small. In fact you've done nothing to support the claim. Secondly. It's great that during the second tiberium war GDI could deploy a corp. Guess what, GDI got rid of 60% of its military before the clans invade in this battle... get with the times pal. More importantly.. you hvan't told me how many soldiers they can field, so I'm guessing the best you can do is say, "they can drop a corps of troops!"

I don't think you've read any of the clan books, and certainly nothing on how the clan wars were fought.

The fact that the Tiberium novel establish a corps of troops? And that using conventional numerology, that's 3 divisions of troops and 9 brigades? Granted, we don't know how large said division and brigade is, but that's still tens of thousands of soldiers..... Even the Bear Claw Galaxy has only a thousand plus elementals.

Okay, so then we shall use this number exactly, since it is the only number you are providing, and it is 30 years out of date. I shall assume therefore, for your numbers given, that it is the maximum possible numbers. One Corps, One division, etc... We are going to hit a range of five hundred thousand soldiers possible. This is extremely high end. I will assume they field as least three... This is one million five hundred thousand soldiers.

Now then, thirty years later they lost 60% of this force.

Which leaves them about six hundred thousand total available forces to protect all their assets. This is divided amongst land, air, ground, and naval forces. This also ignores any numbers lost from the total and complete destruction of southern Europe, in which GDI lost substantial forces. I believe no official number was given, but the news report claimed Millions dead... of course this is spread out amongst GDI, Nod, and civilian...

The simple fact of the matter is even giving you extreme high end numbers the most GDI can field is six hundred thousand... this is to clan wolfs some one million in general population.

Now then, this might be a me thing, but I doubt that all six hundred thousand are zone troopers and tank officers. I doubt this because GDI was down grading its military and its highest end technologies are extremely costly to produce.

So pardon me if I fail to believe that GDI forces will be able to battle an enemy that can land ten eighty ton mechs that are more powerful than anything they can field, at any time, at any city.

And said Clan "standard" infantry is so freaking outnumbered, and STILL vulnerable that its not funny. Not to mention they're still as vulnerable to tanks as they are in the btech universe.

I think I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not nearly as outnumbered as you think... and your forces, IE: GDI, are significantly out gunned.

THe PPC damage comes from two components, its kinetic and heating effect. IOW, the amount of freaking energy it has. Whether or not a target is electrically shielded or not has miminal bearing. Its STILL CoE.
SO guess what? its NOT variable.

Okay fine, the PPC is not a variable weapon even though you just admitted that there is a minimal effect based on the target (which is also BS because there are specific shielding methods against the PPC, but hey, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about so I won't fault you). It can gigajoules of damage to an area. Averaged at three gigajoules, melting glass across a street. Congratulations, our common weapon can obliterate your common tanks in generally one shot.

Which makes........... no difference whatsoever.

It's the difference between a dead elemental soldier, and a living elemental soldier, that's a pretty big damn difference.

The Elementals max range is 600m....... That's freaking equivalent to the GDI forces.

What's your source for 600 meters? Sounds like a specific game mechanic, which, again we are not using. I know that Elementals field weapons that have longer ranges than 600 meters also from the game mechanics.

Because said light mechs are not FAST moving. 5- 10 ton mechs have a speed of roughly 50-80kph, and that's the higher end of speed.

Except a timber wolf mech, 75 tons, has a speed of 86.4 km/h. Which means again, you don't know what the hell you are talking about and it is getting sad.

Except that
1. THat's not the HGR. The HGR is the Steiner owned property.
2. Which variant are you using to calculate space? Cause, again, the HGR is not deployable for space combat.

Of course, if you were properly using terms throughout the debate, we won't be having this argument.
From variable firepower, to light mech definition to Heavy Gauss Rifle.

FOR THE LAST TIME, I'm not arguing it is a space based weapon as you are so quick to point out that it isn't. I said specifically, that I calculated its effects based on it being in a vacuum, so that way I could calculate its effects in atmosphere afterward. Frankly, I don't see what is so hard to grasp that someone would like a nice number to work with rather than trying to make an approximation with absolutely zero data.

This doesn't change the fact that a gauss rifle, which they can still use, has an effective range of up to 12km. You can't change that fact no matter how much you don't want to understand the English language.


But I grow tired of this. At the end of the day you have failed to prove that GDI can send comprable forces against the clans.

Your claims are as follows: They will outnumber the clans. This is BS and you clearly haven't read any of the clan wars. You cite soldiers in the thousands which frankly is only representative of their mech based numbers.

I claim that GDI isn't as big as you think it is, I've backed up my claim with 'current' cannon evidence. You have no counter evidence. GDI military is 60% less. I gave you the biggest end numbers possible... and it still won't be enough... dropping even five hundred mechs on earth will end GDI.

But, to prevent this from going on any longer my final statement in this particular thread is that it will take more than one clan. It will take three. Why? Because no one is even remotely that stupid to believe that C&C earth circa 2050 can withstand three clans. Will take the three largest clans for it. We won't use orbital bombing, but we will use atmospheric bombing... IE: move our ships close enough to fight within atmosphere.

This means that earth is not only screwed, but frankly stands absolutely no chance...

Provide some evidence for bigger and better GDI forces and maybe I'll post again... frankly, you haven't yet, and I don't think you will any time soon.

[PainRack]

And guess what, I keep saying glancing blows from gauss rifles, don't I. And yes, it DOES matter because a glancing blow from a guass rifle means it hit the tree next to you.

Try this. Evidence that an elemental CAN survive a glancing hit from a gauss rifle?

It doesn't matter since GDI infantry and tanks don't field weapons on par with a PPC anyway so until you can find a point that makes the common elementals (and lets not even get into the uncommon battlearmors that other people make use of)

Thus, my point that mere gyrojet rifles and even assault rifles, recoiless rifles can hurt Elementals. Not to mention laser and plasma weaponery, which are all available to GDI forces.

Which it has been established GDI common infantry isn't fielding gyroget rifles. They are fielding a short range high caliber weapon that will not even be able to shoot back when elementals open fire on them. Even your zone troopers, the only infantry that even stood a chance in this fight, are few and far between in comparison. In fact it is stated that the cost of equipping one zone trooper with armor and his rail gun is worth an entire rifleman squad.

lolcat. What is this game of comparing name? its the firepower that we should be talking about. The GDI minigunners have been established to be firing similar calibre weapons as Battletech forces, along with similar ranges and speed.

Secondly: Yes, any weapon can get 'lucky' and defeat armor... I already admitted this point and said the same thing about GDI forces... ANYONE can get lucky.

And guess what? Its not about "luck". Its about the established armour capacity of Battletech armour. The Elemental suit is a marvel, but we already seen in C&C2 cutscene how the drop trooper assault rifle can take down heavily armoured Cyborgs in one shot. That suggest armoured penetration capability similar to Battletech rifle platoons, which can wear down Elemental defences. And since Elementals are going to be severely outnumbered.

Except that the Slyph is a standard battle armor of the elementals!

The Slyph is NOT an ELEMENTAL. An Elemental specifically refers to the standard Clan Battle Suit. OR the genetically modified Infantry. It does not refer to Clan Battle Armour as an whole!

You either haven't read any of the clan war novels or bothered to remember anything about them. The 'thousands' of units in the front line forces I think you are referring to would be the tens of thousands of mechs that the clans threw into the fray. These mechs were supported by hundreds of thousands of infantry of varying types, who were then supported by the elementals. The forces they were going up against fielded hundreds of thousands of tanks, helicopters, jets, tens of thousands of mechs, and hundreds of thousands of infantry.

Really? The entire clan Frontline Touman listed in Invading Clans, Warden Clans, Crusader Clans are now junk based on your delusion that the Clan War novels have tens of thousands of mechs involved in a single battle? Hell, a Clan consists of approximately 400 to 800 mechs in frontline units, and an additional several hundred mechs for secondline units. The major difference is that the Clans can throw out more armoured units per at any equivalent organisation but then again, any Battletech power can.

Or did you just forget about the entire clan war...

No you fucking liar. I have the entire Crusader Clans, Invading Clans, Jade Falcon, Wolf Clan, and Warden Clan sourcebook here in front of me.

And you still havn't proven that clan front line forces are that small. In fact you've done nothing to support the claim. Secondly. It's great that during the second tiberium war GDI could deploy a corp. Guess what, GDI got rid of 60% of its military before the clans invade in this battle... get with the times pal. More importantly.. you hvan't told me how many soldiers they can field, so I'm guessing the best you can do is say, "they can drop a corps of troops!"

They dropped 60% of their bases, not 60% of their military. The clans have a thousand soldiers in a galaxy approximately. So yes, my claim that GDI in that corps already outnumber the Invading Clans frontline forces in terms of troops is true.

The simple fact of the matter is even giving you extreme high end numbers the most GDI can field is six hundred thousand... this is to clan wolfs some one million in general population.

I'm not a C&C nut. I'm a Btech nut. Guess what?
The source you quote from is Warriors of Kerensky, a FASA sourcebook. Guess what that sourcebook says about Clan Wolf military?It has 35 clusters, seperated into 24 Crusader, 11 Warden.
Going into the Crusader Clan and Warden clan sourcebook, that's 1390 Crusader Units and 580 Warden units. Combined, that's 1970 Clan points in total...
A detailed count is impossible due to the mixing of Clan types in each cluster, but even with inflation from fighter(2 fighters per point) and Elementals(5 per point), you're not going to get anywhere remotely close to a hundred thousand soldiers.
We could use the 5 frontline galaxies Clan Wolf has in Clan Wolf sourcebook.But I'm not bored enough to go count beans there, especially since I need to actually make an effort to differentiate between WIA and KIA in the unit roster there.

So pardon me if I fail to believe that GDI forces will be able to battle an enemy that can land ten eighty ton mechs that are more powerful than anything they can field, at any time, at any city.

That would depend on the range issue. The Clan energy weapons should outrange GDI/NOD units, since the medium laser is 6 klicks AT.

[quote#Okay fine, the PPC is not a variable weapon even though you just admitted that there is a minimal effect based on the target (which is also BS because there are specific shielding methods against the PPC, but hey, it's clear you don't know what you're talking about so I won't fault you). [/quote]
And Blueshot/Blueshield and Glazed armour are level 3 equipment. More importantly, PPCs firepower isn't varied based on the target composition, but rather, on ACTIVE shielding. You're not going to find those components outside of military armour, and even here, its going to be rare. Glazed armour is a level 3 equipment that's in universe, is restricted to elite forces(and Jihad frankly throws out that concept since they rewritten the equipment and threw in the VR pods), more importantly, Blueshot/shield is only restricted to Solaris 7.

It can gigajoules of damage to an area. Averaged at three gigajoules, melting glass across a street. Congratulations, our common weapon can obliterate your common tanks in generally one shot.

Scattered glass is NOT 3 gigajoules. The lower limit for a PPC is approximately 40MJ, with upper limit assuming total vapourisation of iron being only 100MJ(albeit, values differ due to the different characteristics of iron, the fact that its an alloy and etc). That's why assuming armour resistance and the effects of heat conduction(Crystal Aligned steel is specifically stated to conduct heat away from the impact point), a good gauge is to assume an additional 10 fold increase, giving you approximately 1GJ.
That's an UPPER limit for Battletech weaponery, since energy weapon doesn't vapourise the entire armour.

For non energy weapons, battletech weaponery become extremely specialised for anti mech operations and vague fluff cover the rules.LRMs contain so little explosive weight that their damage must come primarily from their Kinetic energy for example, and its effect is presumably due to the pecularities of Btech armour, cause they would be utterly ineffective against modern day armour. SRMs contain more space for explosives, although its incomparable compared to modern day heavy AT missiles. Even the thunderbolt contains relatively little space for an explosive round, and presumably depends on an heavy penetrator, although its up for speculation.

It's the difference between a dead elemental soldier, and a living elemental soldier, that's a pretty big damn difference.

Except for the fact that this hasn't been shown? And while it may be plausible(btech does allow for deflection of shots although this is under fire from several experts in CBT), its really stretching the magical capabilities of battletech armour a bit.

What's your source for 600 meters? Sounds like a specific game mechanic, which, again we are not using. I know that Elementals field weapons that have longer ranges than 600 meters also from the game mechanics.

Errr...... No, it doesn't. The SRM is 300m long, 400 meters using extreme ranges, and the RPG extends it to 740m for Extreme range. I would like to point out that you're not going to get higher figures from the novels, which uses even MORE limited ranges.

Except a timber wolf mech, 75 tons, has a speed of 86.4 km/h. Which means again, you don't know what the hell you are talking about and it is getting sad.

And what does the Timber Wolf have to do with the example of 5-15 ton mechs?

Beside, you already made it clear you're talking about the "real" light mechs the Clans uses, and as stated, they aren't generally used for guard duty.

FOR THE LAST TIME, I'm not arguing it is a space based weapon as you are so quick to point out that it isn't. I said specifically, that I calculated its effects based on it being in a vacuum, so that way I could calculate its effects in atmosphere afterward. Frankly, I don't see what is so hard to grasp that someone would like a nice number to work with rather than trying to make an approximation with absolutely zero data.

Because the HGR doesn't have a range of 360km, the only weapon that does that..... is the spaceborne equivalent.

This doesn't change the fact that a gauss rifle, which they can still use, has an effective range of up to 12km. You can't change that fact no matter how much you don't want to understand the English language.

Really? And you base your range of 12km from? IIRC, the AT equivalent is 18 km long, although I haven't bothered converting to AT2.

#Your claims are as follows: They will outnumber the clans. This is BS and you clearly haven't read any of the clan wars. You cite soldiers in the thousands which frankly is only representative of their mech based numbers.

Because the Clans don't deploy significant numbers of infantry, unless you include the paramilitaries. Which are as said, armed with civilian based weapons, although the original definition of PGCs gave them vehicles.

But, to prevent this from going on any longer my final statement in this particular thread is that it will take more than one clan. It will take three. Why? Because no one is even remotely that stupid to believe that C&C earth circa 2050 can withstand three clans. Will take the three largest clans for it. We won't use orbital bombing, but we will use atmospheric bombing... IE: move our ships close enough to fight within atmosphere.

And? I believe in the equivalent thread on SB, the coverage of the topic was any IS power would win based purely on orbital superiority. Albeit, the issues under discussion would be Clan honour and tactics, although I still recall the argument against Nebfer was regarding Btech warships firepower(he suggested it has Extinction Level Effects based on Outreach, which is false, although Snow Raven attack against Dante may reach such firepower)

The contention here is your purely ABSURD Battletech claims, the same reason why I entered the C&C thread back in SB.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Or did you just forget about the entire clan war...

No you fucking liar.

Folks, cool it.

Scattered glass is NOT 3 gigajoules.

We're not talking about shattered glass. We're talking about melted glass across the street. Big difference.

The lower limit for a PPC is approximately 40MJ,

Completely unjustified and radically off-base from any PPC firing I've read a description of.

with upper limit assuming total vapourisation of iron being only 100MJ(albeit, values differ due to the different characteristics of iron, the fact that its an alloy and etc).

And you're at least an order of magnitude off on your own method of estimation. Double check your calculations, please. You'll get about that much per damage point based on melting steel.

What's your source for 600 meters? Sounds like a specific game mechanic, which, again we are not using. I know that Elementals field weapons that have longer ranges than 600 meters also from the game mechanics.

Errr...... No, it doesn't. The SRM is 300m long, 400 meters using extreme ranges, and the RPG extends it to 740m for Extreme range.

That would be game mechanics.

I would like to point out that you're not going to get higher figures from the novels, which uses even MORE limited ranges.

And, incidentally, the RPG gives a much longer range for the lasers they use, too. In excess of 600 meters.

[PainRack]

We're not talking about shattered glass. We're talking about melted glass across the street. Big difference.

The glass melted, then was scattered throughout the street.

Completely unjustified and radically off-base from any PPC firing I've read a description of.

Ahem. Half a ton of iron melted calcs.

And you're at least an order of magnitude off on your own method of estimation. Double check your calculations, please. You'll get about that much per damage point based on melting steel.

Errr, no. The calcs based on 2700 celsisus for boiling iron. Its actually an overestimate since in reality, iron should had sublimed before that, and of course, no armour is ever fully vapourised. 1GJ represent a good upper limit based on an entirely arbitrary augmention of * 10 to represent the fact that the calcs doesn't account for alloys which would distort the physical values, as well as the armour protection accorded via conduction and reradiation.
To put it simply, the melting/vapourisation calcs represent the most significant, non out of context values for firepower in the Btech universe.

of course, I could also point out much lower energy levels based on the gasoline to power point conversion rates, as well as as solar power recharging to power point and converting that to the support laser/small laser. However, the difference is so large that I have been debating with Cray that this argues that the RPG firepower is dialled down for sustained fire.

That would be game mechanics.

I KNOW. The 600m is taken from an exercept from a novel where an Shadow Hawk fired SRMs at ranges greater than 500m.He challenged me saying that it sounds like a game mechanic, and I pointed out that game mechanics only allow for 720m at extreme ranges.

And, incidentally, the RPG gives a much longer range for the lasers they use, too. In excess of 600 meters.

Actually, 720m as well as 1.5klick for extreme range rules.

[PainRack]

We're not talking about shattered glass. We're talking about melted glass across the street. Big difference.

The glass melted, then was scattered throughout the street.

Completely unjustified and radically off-base from any PPC firing I've read a description of.

Ahem. Half a ton of iron melted calcs.

And you're at least an order of magnitude off on your own method of estimation. Double check your calculations, please. You'll get about that much per damage point based on melting steel.

Errr, no. The calcs based on 2700 celsisus for boiling iron. Its actually an overestimate since in reality, iron should had sublimed before that, and of course, no armour is ever fully vapourised. 1GJ represent a good upper limit based on an entirely arbitrary augmention of * 10 to represent the fact that the calcs doesn't account for alloys which would distort the physical values, as well as the armour protection accorded via conduction and reradiation.
To put it simply, the melting/vapourisation calcs represent the most significant, non out of context values for firepower in the Btech universe.

of course, I could also point out much lower energy levels based on the gasoline to power point conversion rates, as well as as solar power recharging to power point and converting that to the support laser/small laser. However, the difference is so large that I have been debating with Cray that this argues that the RPG firepower is dialled down for sustained fire.

That would be game mechanics.

I KNOW. The 600m is taken from an exercept from a novel where an Shadow Hawk fired SRMs at ranges greater than 500m.He challenged me saying that it sounds like a game mechanic, and I pointed out that game mechanics only allow for 720m at extreme ranges.

And, incidentally, the RPG gives a much longer range for the lasers they use, too. In excess of 600 meters.

Actually, 720m as well as 1.5klick for extreme range rules.

[Jedi Master Spock]

If the glass melts, it melts, and that's a lot of thermal energy.

Ahem. Half a ton of iron melted calcs.

500 kg / 56 g/mol ~ 9000 mols iron.

13.8 kJ/mol heat of fusion * 9000 mols gives 124 megajoules' heat of fusion... and then you have to heat it to the melting point, too, which means about another 1500 kelvins for iron.

Errr, no. The calcs based on 2700 celsisus for boiling iron. Its actually an overestimate since in reality, iron should had sublimed before that, and of course, no armour is ever fully vapourised. 1GJ represent a good upper limit based on an entirely arbitrary augmention of * 10 to represent the fact that the calcs doesn't account for alloys which would distort the physical values, as well as the armour protection accorded via conduction and reradiation.
To put it simply, the melting/vapourisation calcs represent the most significant, non out of context values for firepower in the Btech universe.

You messed that one up, too. Heat atomization of a half ton of iron is 3.7 gigajoules leaving aside waste heat and localized superheating. You can have superheating on top of vaporization, of course, but it's a reasonable highball figure if you like vaporization descriptions.

Small detail: The PPCs are taking off full tons, not half tons, more or less. Introduce a fudge factor 10 as you suggest, and we're at 74 gigajoules for them as an "upper limit" - seven times what I'd like to conclude.

of course, I could also point out much lower energy levels based on the gasoline to power point conversion rates, as well as as solar power recharging to power point and converting that to the support laser/small laser. However, the difference is so large that I have been debating with Cray that this argues that the RPG firepower is dialled down for sustained fire.

I.e., there are major consistency issues when we start relating power technology types. By all means, give details. I'm interested to see them if you have them, but I'm not wholly convinced you do.

[PainRack]

13.8 kJ/mol heat of fusion * 9000 mols gives 124 megajoules' heat of fusion... and then you have to heat it to the melting point, too, which means about another 1500 kelvins for iron.

Apparently, we're using different formulas... The one I used simply used latent heat for mass. This combined with the specific heat capacity of iron, again calculated in mass.

Even if rerun using mols though, we're not getting anywhere near GJ level energy for melting calcs, which is actually the most consistent quotes in the novels. For example, Vlad PPCs was stated to melt armor off in rivulets during the runup to Borealtown during the Refusal war. Vapourisation is obviously localised and limited.

I.e., there are major consistency issues when we start relating power technology types. By all means, give details. I'm interested to see them if you have them, but I'm not wholly convinced you do.

I have to go redig them out, but Cray was running gasoline as an energy source, and calculated IIRC out to 42KJ per power point in the RPG. The Solar recharger using contemporary powersources as a guide comes out to similar values.

To put it simply, Battletech owns in terms of energy weapons. The firepower calcs here is actually a sidetrack in this particular discussion. Against Warhammer, that's another issue altogether because WH40k Lascannons routinely blast holes in reinforced concrete and buildings and smaller weapons can vapourise large amount of ice.
The real contention in any C&C battle against Battletech is actually in terms of numbers.

For example, Clan Wolf replenishment rate for swapping out battlemechs with Omnimechs is only a hundred plus mechs a year......... 400 plus as an upper limit. While this is partially dictated by the long supply endrun to the Inner Sphere, that's still an obscenely low rebuilding rate.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Apparently, we're using different formulas... The one I used simply used latent heat for mass. This combined with the specific heat capacity of iron, again calculated in mass.

Even if rerun using mols though, we're not getting anywhere near GJ level energy for melting calcs, which is actually the most consistent quotes in the novels. For example, Vlad PPCs was stated to melt armor off in rivulets during the runup to Borealtown during the Refusal war. Vapourisation is obviously localised and limited.

Not in all quotes. I'd like to see what formulas you're using, if for no other reason than to find out what mistake you made. You're really dramatically wrong on your calculation there.

Before she could track her weapons up the wall, three coruscating beams of energy reached out to engulf the Dervish; one melted armor off the right arm, but the other two cored right into the right torso, the armor flashing instantly into a metallic vapor.

Instantly flashing into metallic vapor.

The big Mauler rocked from the recoil effect of New Samarkand's finest ferro-fibrous armor jetting away from the beam in the form of plasma.

Superheated into plasma.

Armor comes off yellow-hot, sits at the edge of furrows white-hot, evaporates, melts, is shredded into chunks... we're not talking about globally consistent descriptions.

I have to go redig them out, but Cray was running gasoline as an energy source, and calculated IIRC out to 42KJ per power point in the RPG. The Solar recharger using contemporary powersources as a guide comes out to similar values.

Well, for a solar recharger, you can use light intensity times surface area as an upper limit.

IIRC, WH40K runs into similar problems if you start talking about solar charging, and so does Star Wars with TIEs' solar-electric engine. It's a common problem.

To put it simply, Battletech owns in terms of energy weapons. The firepower calcs here is actually a sidetrack in this particular discussion. Against Warhammer, that's another issue altogether because WH40k Lascannons routinely blast holes in reinforced concrete and buildings and smaller weapons can vapourise large amount of ice.

Correction: WH40k ground weapons regularly punch holes in walls. Not buildings, just individual walls of buildings, so far as I can tell.

BT weapons go through buildings at times:

One hypersonic slug missed wide, punching through a building behind the Hauptmann and leaving an impressive wound behind.

The real contention in any C&C battle against Battletech is actually in terms of numbers.

For example, Clan Wolf replenishment rate for swapping out battlemechs with Omnimechs is only a hundred plus mechs a year......... 400 plus as an upper limit. While this is partially dictated by the long supply endrun to the Inner Sphere, that's still an obscenely low rebuilding rate.

There is in general a tendency towards small numbers of mechs in BT. However, that seems a little small, even so.

Where is this 100-400 mech/year replenishment rate from? I'd like to know the source before I judge it.

[PainRack]

Armor comes off yellow-hot, sits at the edge of furrows white-hot, evaporates, melts, is shredded into chunks... we're not talking about globally consistent descriptions.

That's actually correlation for armour model.... Its a bit complicated, but the current armour theory is that battletech armour causes energy to be conducted and then reradiated away. This explains how half a ton of armour or more is melted/vapourised/etc, even though the armour at any spot is only g worth if it follows basic density.

Well, for a solar recharger, you can use light intensity times surface area as an upper limit.

We did. I still not having access to the Mechwarrior 2nd edt stuff, but a 500kg recharger that's manportable is NOT going to provide you with GJ firepower for the support laser/small laser.

IIRC, WH40K runs into similar problems if you start talking about solar charging, and so does Star Wars with TIEs' solar-electric engine. It's a common problem.

The TIE solar panel is easy. Solar panels just means converting incoming radiation to energy. It doesn't have to come from the sun. If the panels are heat sinks as Saxton postulates, then the radiation source is actually waste heat coming from its own engines. We just then have to delink the main energy source myth, which is only found in some sources.

BT weapons go through buildings at times:

One hypersonic slug missed wide, punching through a building behind the Hauptmann and leaving an impressive wound behind.

Lol. Try Test of Vengenance, a gauss rifle digging a trench in concrete over several meters long.

The PROBLEM, is however not that Battletech KE weapons are weak. The problem is the impossible nature of Btech armour...... That's why I did not discuss the nature of ballistic weapons. Battletech armour is both extremely weak against ke attacks and strong against attacks. It doesn't even have a predictable parameter like Dune shields. Let's not forget that ballistic weapons are hard to quantify. Or are extremely inconsistent in depiction between sourcebooks and novels.

There is in general a tendency towards small numbers of mechs in BT. However, that seems a little small, even so.

Where is this 100-400 mech/year replenishment rate from? I'd like to know the source before I judge it.

The source is from Crusader Clans, Wolf Clan entry, in which incorporating insorla and production, Clan Wolf expects to replace battlemechs in its two frontline Clan galaxies with Omnimechs. A physical count gives us an "approximate" number.. the estimates and the like is found in the SDN thread Battletech Technical Archive.

[Trinoya]

Not in all quotes. I'd like to see what formulas you're using, if for no other reason than to find out what mistake you made. You're really dramatically wrong on your calculation there.

I, as well, would like a chance to see it.

The source is from Crusader Clans

I'll look into this field manual at my earliest convenience. I believe I can obtain a copy by the end of the week. Mind if I ask for a page number?

On a secondary note: I never claimed they fielded hundreds of thousands in a single battle (although one could always look into the recreation of Gettysburg for those numbers lol). I was referencing the full war effort in that regard.

And on a final note, just to clearify an order of the debate...

You said:

Which light mechs are you referring to? The 10 tonners, or the category of light mechs ranging from 20-40 tons? If its the former, they're restricted solely to guard duty and other specialised purposes, mostly paramilitary.

Bold mine.

I then responded...

Specifically I'm referring to the 20-40ton range of mechs that the Clans used for scouting during the clan wars, as well as networking and guard duty... you do realize they have over a hundred light mech designs for this, or do you really want me to list them all.

Italics mine.

And then you said:

Except that Light Mechs don't do GUARD DUTY....

Italics mine.

Because said light mechs are not FAST moving. 5- 10 ton mechs have a speed of roughly 50-80kph, and that's the higher end of speed.

Italics mine.

I believe someone can understand where I started to get lost in your unusual assertion of guarding and not guarding... regardless, you seem to be asserting at the end of the day that light mechs do not in fact do guard duty, or scouting and networking apparently... It is a good thing I'm refering to the light mechs of 20-40 tons and not your light mechs of 5-15 tons (as I said before). But to put an end to this before you contradict yourself anymore and further ignore what I wrote:

The fire moth has a speed around 160km/h and it can increase that speed to 216.0 km/h. The mech is normally utilized for scouting. More importantly these types of clan mechs were in use for guard duty on convoys and patrol duty around depots, which... again, means my assertion that light weight mechs tend to do more speciliazed roles, like guard duty and scouting, remains... and I made it clear I was talking about the 20-40tonners. One of the most favored variations by clan forces was to give it an AP to prevent ambushing of areas, and a TAG system for long range assistance when it actually had to go into battle... which is not what nearly unarmored mech was ever designed for. I believe this particular light mech has variations also for light infantry defense, light armor defense, light general offense, and even urban fighting (which I believe was armed with AP guass rifles).

The Fire Moth is a 20 ton mech.

Technical Readout: 3050, 3050 Revised, 3050 Upgrade.

Of course, you have provided no counter evidence (still) to this assertion that light 20 ton mechs are utilized in support activities... And yet we find them being specifically designed for that. Hell, a 45 ton mech was designed for it as well (the ice ferret).

[Jedi Master Spock]

That's actually correlation for armour model.... Its a bit complicated, but the current armour theory is that battletech armour causes energy to be conducted and then reradiated away. This explains how half a ton of armour or more is melted/vapourised/etc, even though the armour at any spot is only g worth if it follows basic density.

Well, when you're talking ~10g/cm^2 and a ton of armor being affected, that's 10 square meters of surface area. We are talking about something that's the next best thing to superconductive when it comes to heat and shock - and that, in turn, is part of the bag of complications attached to your melting figure estimate. Some energy is being conducted/reradiated away rather than going into melting/vaporizing armor. How much? Who knows?

We did. I still not having access to the Mechwarrior 2nd edt stuff, but a 500kg recharger that's manportable is NOT going to provide you with GJ firepower for the support laser/small laser.

MW 2nd edition? I'll look that up and see what I can find. In general, our upper limit for solar is around a 1 KW/m^2 range for T-standard enivironment, which is to say 3.6 MJ/hour/m^2. For chemical, we're talking ~40 MJ/kg for traditional petrochemicals.

The TIE solar panel is easy. Solar panels just means converting incoming radiation to energy. It doesn't have to come from the sun. If the panels are heat sinks as Saxton postulates, then the radiation source is actually waste heat coming from its own engines. We just then have to delink the main energy source myth, which is only found in some sources.

Not quite. See, in "Tyrant's Test," we have the following problematic reference:

Someone on the Tobay forgot that TIEs have solar-electric ion boost engines. Not much out here for them to eat. They won't catch us.

Whoops. I've gone into great detail on this before; it's problematic. So is Saxton's explanation, which involves redefining solar panels. If they're heat radiators, then they're not producing energy; they're dumping it. The official canon status seems to be that all sorts of "wings," including those of the predecessors of TIEs, are stabilizing foils first and foremost.

BT weapons go through buildings at times:

One hypersonic slug missed wide, punching through a building behind the Hauptmann and leaving an impressive wound behind.

Lol. Try Test of Vengenance, a gauss rifle digging a trench in concrete over several meters long.

Unsurprising.

The PROBLEM, is however not that Battletech KE weapons are weak.

Because they aren't. You mentioned talking with Cray on CBT.com; I believe he would agree with me on this count.

The problem is the impossible nature of Btech armour.

Not quite. It's the next best thing to physically impossible, yes, but as I've previously mentioned, those things that violate physics tend to be more powerful, not less, and this is the case [as usual] when we're talking about BT armor.

..... That's why I did not discuss the nature of ballistic weapons. Battletech armour is both extremely weak against ke attacks

And here, you're dead wrong. By modern standards, BT armor is absolutely ridiculous. Something with the mass and velocity of a gauss round would go clean through a modern tank, and yet can be stopped by a ridiculously thin layer of armor.

And that ridiculously thin layer stops something that would go through a third of a meter of steel pretty easily. The new TacOps book deals with "primitive" ballistic weapons, and something with shells the size of a modern tank's deal 0 damage per hit to things with BattleMech-grade armor (3 to those without); that's the mechanic, and it agrees with the old Mackie test.

Even if we dispensed with RL history and assumed that they're talking about basic modern-level RHA in the 25th century in the testing lab, and assumed a thickness of 2 cm to stop a 330mm RHAe penetrating shell, that's armor with >16.5x RHAe against kinetic penetrators. Absolutely incredible.

and strong against attacks. It doesn't even have a predictable parameter like Dune shields. Let's not forget that ballistic weapons are hard to quantify. Or are extremely inconsistent in depiction between sourcebooks and novels.

Calibers vary incredibly. However, caliber isn't everything. Disregarding caliber - which is stated to vary widely within each class of autocannon - the descriptions seem halfway consistent by VS standards.

The source is from Crusader Clans, Wolf Clan entry, in which incorporating insorla and production, Clan Wolf expects to replace battlemechs in its two frontline Clan galaxies with Omnimechs. A physical count gives us an "approximate" number.. the estimates and the like is found in the SDN thread Battletech Technical Archive.

That sounds like net replacement rate accounting for planned attrition in combat and a long logistical train. I'll look that up and check through the details. It might not be possible to peg it down more precisely than to within a factor of 2, or even that level of precision might not be quite justified, but we'll see when I have time.

[PainRack]

I'll look into this field manual at my earliest convenience. I believe I can obtain a copy by the end of the week. Mind if I ask for a page number?

Page 139. Its not the full quote however, since to do that, you have to start counting battlemechs in the following pages.

On a secondary note: I never claimed they fielded hundreds of thousands in a single battle (although one could always look into the recreation of Gettysburg for those numbers lol). I was referencing the full war effort in that regard.

So, what's the problem? The fact remains that in that corps of troops, my statement is accurate. That corps has more soldiers in it than the Invading Clans frontline galaxies.

I believe someone can understand where I started to get lost in your unusual assertion of guarding and not guarding... regardless, you seem to be asserting at the end of the day that light mechs do not in fact do guard duty, or scouting and networking apparently... It is a good thing I'm refering to the light mechs of 20-40 tons and not your light mechs of 5-15 tons (as I said before). But to put an end to this before you contradict yourself anymore and further ignore what I wrote:

Light mechs in general= 20-40 ton mechs.
However, there exist a "specialised" class of light mechs, ranging from 10 tonners to 15 tonners that exist in custom mechs and formerly, in one off classes. We even see some of these mechs used in paramilitary duties in the Inner Sphere, usually for police work, although reworked Wasp with water cannons exist. That was why I asked which TYPE of light mechs you were referring to.
The specialised light mechs that do guard duties and other specialised duties, which was what a good part of your sentence suggest, or the "normal" light mechs, which does scouting and raiding duties in general and of course, are FAST mechs.(Well, for the Clans... usually.)

More importantly these types of clan mechs were in use for guard duty on convoys and patrol duty around depots, which... again, means my assertion that light weight mechs tend to do more speciliazed roles, like guard duty and scouting, remains... and I made it clear I was talking about the 20-40tonners.

Errr. No. The Fire Moth isn't generally used for guard duty on convoys or patrol duty. While the Uller does pull such roles, such roles are generally reserved for slower mechs, its even specifically mentioned in the TRO that other Clans prefer to use heavier models for this duty, leaving it to Clan Jade Falcon to use such a light mech.

One of the most favored variations by clan forces was to give it an AP to prevent ambushing of areas, and a TAG system for long range assistance when it actually had to go into battle... which is not what nearly unarmored mech was ever designed for. I believe this particular light mech has variations also for light infantry defense, light armor defense, light general offense, and even urban fighting (which I believe was armed with AP guass rifles).

The Firemoth is too small to carry AP gauss rifles. The S class you refer to in First Strike is used for recon missions in urban cities. Its not USED for guard duties.

Of course, you have provided no counter evidence (still) to this assertion that light 20 ton mechs are utilized in support activities... And yet we find them being specifically designed for that. Hell, a 45 ton mech was designed for it as well (the ice ferret).

lol. False misrepresentation. My contention is that fast light mechs are not generally used for guard duties in the Clans. That's routinely reserved for slower heavier mechs such as the HellHound and etc. While the Locust IIC is a secondline mech, its use is for scouting and pacification duties. That's not to say it CAN"T be used, but then again, any mech can be technically used to guard something, even a Charger.

Some energy is being conducted/reradiated away rather than going into melting/vaporizing armor. How much? Who knows?

So no limits applies suddenly?
Let's reserve energy calcs to the commentary thread I think.

MW 2nd edition? I'll look that up and see what I can find. In general, our upper limit for solar is around a 1 KW/m^2 range for T-standard enivironment, which is to say 3.6 MJ/hour/m^2. For chemical, we're talking ~40 MJ/kg for traditional petrochemicals.

Found it. 1.5kg for a solar recharger, providing 45 power points per hour. I can't link up to the fossial fuel quotes unfortunately, since I lost the relevant materials.

So is Saxton's explanation, which involves redefining solar panels. If they're heat radiators, then they're not producing energy; they're dumping it. The official canon status seems to be that all sorts of "wings," including those of the predecessors of TIEs, are stabilizing foils first and foremost.

Lol. Saxton explaination is a retcon. No one ever debated that.

Because they aren't. You mentioned talking with Cray on CBT.com; I believe he would agree with me on this count.

Not exactly..... I actually disagree with him since he believes the standard translation of modern cannons firepower to damage point. Unfortunately, my contention is not canonically supported, just something that's more theoretically consistent within battletech. To summarise the difference, modern cannons can do damage to Btech armour within the canon literature. I disagree, contending that Battletech armour is not solely ablative, but also deflective as well. The evidence however is only indirect, not direct, unlike ablative. And it rests on a model that literally says Btech armour is either magic or has shields:D

Not quite. It's the next best thing to physically impossible, yes, but as I've previously mentioned, those things that violate physics tend to be more powerful, not less, and this is the case [as usual] when we're talking about BT armor.

Haha. Not in this case. have you EVER reviewed the physical damage calcs from physical attacks? They're not pretty.

Calibers vary incredibly. However, caliber isn't everything. Disregarding caliber - which is stated to vary widely within each class of autocannon - the descriptions seem halfway consistent by VS standards.

Really? So pray tell, what is the autocannon speed? Is it hypersonic, ultrasonic or just sonic in nature from game mechanics? And if its ultrasonic, why is it that its damage nature is LESS than a Gauss rifle, which is 2,2? Or if we do reject the quote in favour of hypersonic quotes, why is it that the Gauss rifle range is LONGER than the autocannon? Or MGs vs AC/2s? Why is it that a much faster 20mm autocannon deals the exact same damage as the 20mm machine gun? Which is actually essentially a gatling cannon?

That sounds like net replacement rate accounting for planned attrition in combat and a long logistical train. I'll look that up and check through the details. It might not be possible to peg it down more precisely than to within a factor of 2, or even that level of precision might not be quite justified, but we'll see when I have time.

Lol. I didn't say it was manufacturing. I said it was the Clan Wolf REPLENISHMENT rate. Which is exactly how fast Clan Wolf could replace Battlemechs with Omnimechs.
Of course, it gets even worse. Since the Clan sibko community only produces thousands of babies, the entire Clan military force only has tens of hundreds of new recruits joining them yearly.And that's an upper estimate. There is a reason why the Clans could never have occupied the Inner Sphere.