ST vs. SG Scenario

[sonofccn]

Travel time between Pegasus and the Milky Way is 3 weeks.

That means that Tau'ri ships travel at ~50,800,000c. Though there's been talk about pushing the engines to get further faster, so who knows what the max speed is.

This is 3 weeks with a ZPM powering the ship, though, not without.

IIRC with a ZPM it would only take an Earth ship 3 days to reach the pegasus galaxy and the 3 week travel time is human power only.

[AFT]

It depends on so many things.
Like, for example, the shield and firepower abitlies. It wouldn't matter if goa'uld ships were outnumbered 10:1 if their tech allowed them to withstand the total firepower of 10 Trek ships.
Basically, Cronos' ha'tak have shields that can work for 10 hours with a drain of 2.614 x 10^10 W (though the way shields work is blurring a bit the thing, like for exaple are they recharged at the same time?).
That was, however, a low end. And if the ratio between his hpd and Pops' one is of any reference, then Pops' shields were roughly 6.487 times tougher.

From what episode those calculations came from? Could you elaborate as how did you get that?

Then, the advantage in speed over a large bulk of Trek ships would give Gateverse the ability to strike first and retreat faster.

Slower Trek ships can be assigned to defend critical asset and planets whiting their own territory and since most of them are already there, obviously, it wouldn’t take long for them to be in position. Also, they can push their FTL drives to the limit inside their own territory so it’s not a problem to get there quite fast. Faster Trek ships can be assembled into Fleets/Task Forces to strike enemy territories.

Besides, since Earth is allied to Anubis and since Anubis apparently controls all the goa'uld forces, he can return to Langara and grab as much naqahdria as he wants, and that's going to be the sheeyeet for Trek.
When you see that a few bits of naqahdria placed inside a sidewinder sized missile, in the latest seasons of Stargate, can deal at the utmost minmum, a punch of 812 gigatons, it's going to be funny to see goa'uld ships running on naqahdria to pump up their FTL and STL engines, shields and weapons.
If they manage to control the reaction however. Anubis' scientist failed in this department.
However, nothing prevents them from coming with naqahdria enhanced bombs ahead of schedule, considering that now they're allies and can cooperate and concentrate on defeating their enemies.

Wait, it’s ST versus SG, isn’t it? Meaning that the Dominion is also there. The Federation-Klingon-Romulan-Dominion Alliance can deploy as much as about 100,000 ships then. One hundred to one odds might offset the firepower/shield advantage that the SG forces supposedly have. And let the Asgard deal with the Borg.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You mean like....

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#FTL ?

or

http://www.ditl.org/hedarticle.php?17 ?

or

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/k6.html and http://www.starfleetjedi.net/m6.html ?

Thanks!

I knew Robert had a comp, but I couldn't find it.

Honestly, those sites have not made it clear to how we're supposed to reach those pages. They're quite messy. For all the bad sides SD.net has, at least it didn't take more than +2.145 seconds to figure out how to end on their comp page.

For ST-v-SW.net's comp page, I've been trying to find anything like that by browsing from the main page. Now I've found it. It's called, "Overview, the What".
Yes, clearly a link I don't click that much, and not explicit enough. I've already found this page once, but couldn't remember how. A title as "comparison of tech of both universes", would be way better.
I know the How When Where Who What sounds smart, but it's not very helpful, and it's way better if it would go to the real meat and potatoes.

As for StarfleetJedi.net, I did click on the FTL speeds, but I didn't understood the site hierarchy and that the top buttons were branches.
It doesn't make the navigation easy, especially if you're looking for a synthesis. But it's lots of info though, which balances the architecture flaws.

Ok, after looking at the warp speeds, I've decided that I'm going to let you sort this. When I read a line where a guy from Voyager who states that warp 9.9 is 21,458 c, and later on, that ships flying at lower warps are reaching speeds thousands supposedly warp 9.9, it's hurting my head, as it needs some serious cissors and pasting play.

It seems that those higher ends would be peaks that cannot be sustained for long periods; for cruising you know. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, reading AFT's post, it seems that we share the same view on that.

But if what I'am seeing here is correct, 32,000c is a good benchmark, with an upper speed approaching that of TNG's "The Chase" speed.

We can't tell, really. It really depends on the ship and the Lord who owned them. Just as much as Nub's ships were the only ones with the shield upgrades (and possibly weapon upgrades), Apophis' ships seemed to have better hyperdrives.
Or maybe it's again a question of peak vs. cruise. I mean, 25 minutes of travel is not like, hum, 125 years of travel.

What about them, and for which faction?

Averages for the UFP and their allies.
You obviously know a lot more about Trek and know things by name, and I don't have time to read all the pages, for all seasons, episode by episode.
I trust you to come with honest reliable figures, not far from averages.

[GStone]

That means that Tau'ri ships travel at ~50,800,000c. Though there's been talk about pushing the engines to get further faster, so who knows what the max speed is.

This is 3 weeks with a ZPM powering the ship, though, not without.

IIRC with a ZPM it would only take an Earth ship 3 days to reach the pegasus galaxy and the 3 week travel time is human power only.

Really? I thought it was 3 weeks with ZPM.

[AFT]

The Asgard aren't one of the factions participating this time around. Too high-tech and too many one-shot technologies that can tip the balance too extremely.

As for Orilla the Asgard homeplanet and ships to spare... Oh the surprise you'll be in for if you ever get to watch SG1 to completion. I'll not spoil you though, since there's no need for it in this thread.

Damn Fox Channel! I really need to see the latest seasons then. I’m guessing absurdly large Asgard fleets, wait, don’t tell me.

So, we can leave the Asgard and the Borg out of this debate then.

[l33telboi]

Wait, it’s ST versus SG, isn’t it? Meaning that the Dominion is also there. The Federation-Klingon-Romulan-Dominion Alliance can deploy as much as about 100,000 ships then. One hundred to one odds might offset the firepower/shield advantage that the SG forces supposedly have. And let the Asgard deal with the Borg.

Federation, Klingons and Romulans vs. the Goa'uld, Wraith and Tau'ri. I wanted this to be about the lower-tier civilizations of both verses. Otherwise we'd have to deal with nasties like the Ori, the Replicators, the Asurans, the Borg and yadda yadda yadda. Too many races to make this coherent in any way.

[Mr. Oragahn]

What I don't get with the OP is how two different takes on the Milky Way are supposed to cooexist at the same time and place...

It's not supposed to make sense. At least not in the grander scheme of things. It's just a simple way to get to a very specific scenario. I.e. a random omnipotent beign suddenly decides that all these factions live in the same galaxy and then declare war on each other. It also has the sidebenefit of making stuff a wee bit less complex.

On SB, when i created this thread, i wanted to see something akin to how will a stronger foe with smaller ship numbers compare to a weaker foe with more ships.

Of course the SB thread devolved into a "Our side can kill your planets and suns first!" argument by the end of the first page.

On this site things are a bit different, as the normal power figures for Trek are very different here.

Looks like your thread is taking off, at last. ;)

So basically, all planets are... there, but like if no one inhabited them, right?

What about raw materials? Dilithium and naqahdah for starters? Naqahdria and trinium?

Aye, all the Goa'uld united under Anubis, using the numbers, forces and tech from Anubis' time-period as a starter package.

Can't remember how many Kull warriors he created. We know he can create them from Tartarus. Since planets are blank, there's no Tartarus, and as thus, the Kull warriors will die within weeks.
Of course, he may screw the kull and instead give his jaffa or even the SG teams that armor, since they're allies and can be trusted.
Anubis does not need brainwashed blank symbiotes anymore.

Is it Anubis era when he had the six Eyes? And does it apply to other races? It would pose paradoxal problems if not.
By the time of Anubis, if we're in season 7, the Wraith are all there, asleep, with no casualties yet.

Normally yes, but for this scenario the Wraith will be awake and have the forces and tech they had during season 1 of Atlantis (i.e. their peak during what we've seen of them on-screen.)

So Anubis has the six eyes, ergo his planet ravaging ship.

As for the Wraith, that means they have a couple of those cruisers and hiveships that can draw several petatons of energy per second with their shield weakening guns, something like at least 12 hiveships and two to three times this in cruisers.

You said in the OP that there's a stargate network in that blank galaxy. Can you provide more info on that?

Hmm. Didn't even think of Atlantis. But i guess that's technically a Tau'ri asset so it'd be usable for the debate. They will be at their peak as well (tech and number-wise), i.e. the latets episode shown. Though i'm not sure what to do with the über-Ody and all the enhancements it got. I created this thread before that so...

I wasn't really thinking about Atlantis but about the Antartica outpost. But following your clarification, there's not such an outpost anymore. Only Atlantis, with 3 ZPMs.
Err... well, I don't know if you know my position on this, but I'm not ashamed at all to consider that a fully powered Atlantis could easily shrugg off Death Star beams.
I mean, we're talking at the very least about power sources able to destroy entire planets, with power conduits able to withstand a drain of 2% of a ZPM per second.

Basically what i meant when i said "The backdrop won't be an issue because it doesn't exist" to Anonymus, i meant that the planets, ships and forces and assets of all factions will be transported to a 'blank' milky way, there are no other races then the ones involved, there are no political situations, no nothing that can contribute to making this more complex.

It's just both sides at war with each other.

They just search for the enemy and shoot it down, right? They know what they are. They won't engage into potential First Contact procedures and friendly chatter.

In the SB thread i allowed it. But it quickly devolved into wank so i'll exclude it in this debate. It keeps things more simple. I have a tendency to create over-complex scenarios at times.

Is the SG teams using Kull armor considering tech sharing?
Or are all sides allies in the sense that they won't shoot each other, but never exchange anything?

Btw, are we allowed the Unending Odyssey?
No pun intended! :D

[Mr. Oragahn]

From what episode those calculations came from? Could you elaborate as how did you get that?

The Siege pt 3.

Here's the pic I used. It ook a bit of gymnastic to obtain the final schematic:

Slower Trek ships can be assigned to defend critical asset and planets whiting their own territory and since most of them are already there, obviously, it wouldn’t take long for them to be in position. Also, they can push their FTL drives to the limit inside their own territory so it’s not a problem to get there quite fast. Faster Trek ships can be assembled into Fleets/Task Forces to strike enemy territories.

Yes, that would make sense then. However, it seems that there's not much critical asset left anymore, since the galaxy is blank. You basically have wild worlds, where you can grab food.
No more HQs whatsoever.

Talking of which, it would mean that the Wraith will be forced to capture ships instead of destroying them at will, otherwise they will quickly die of starvation. And eventually turn against their allies.

Wait, it’s ST versus SG, isn’t it? Meaning that the Dominion is also there. The Federation-Klingon-Romulan-Dominion Alliance can deploy as much as about 100,000 ships then. One hundred to one odds might offset the firepower/shield advantage that the SG forces supposedly have. And let the Asgard deal with the Borg.

I don't remember the Dominion being part of the story.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Damn Fox Channel! I really need to see the latest seasons then. I’m guessing absurdly large Asgard fleets, wait, don’t tell me.

So, we can leave the Asgard and the Borg out of this debate then.

I'd actually suggest to watch all seasons, safe the latest of the lastest super final episode.
Not saying that the show was going downhill since several seasons (seriously, only The Shroud reminded me of good ol' episodes... of course, it had nice humour, action and characters we all know and love), but this one... well, you got to be prepared.

[AFT]

Federation, Klingons and Romulans vs. the Goa'uld, Wraith and Tau'ri. I wanted this to be about the lower-tier civilizations of both verses. Otherwise we'd have to deal with nasties like the Ori, the Replicators, the Asurans, the Borg and yadda yadda yadda. Too many races to make this coherent in any way.

Wait, why not the Dominion? Although slightly more advanced than the Federation they are still roughly on the same level, besides if the Goa’uld, Wraith and Tau’ri can make an alliance I don’t see any reason to not include the Dominion on this, after all they are on the same galaxy as the FKR Alliance while the Wraith are from another galaxy relative to the other SG races. And I’m thinking more in the lines of alliance in the sense that “they won't shoot each other, but never exchange anything”, things are already very complicated as it is, never mind tech sharing.

[l33telboi]

So basically, all planets are... there, but like if no one inhabited them, right?

Aye. The planets that are not occupied by any of the factions are empty and devoid of life. Well, sentient life in any case. However planets that were owned by each race before they were transported to this new galaxy will also be transported. SGverse Earth and Trek Earth will both exist, as will all other planets belonging to each side.

It goes under the "they will have all their assets" thingy.

What about raw materials? Dilithium and naqahdah for starters? Naqahdria and trinium?

The factions involved will have the industry they had before. If that industry was somehow dependant on another faction or race that isn't included in the op, then that material/product will still be provided to the factions missing it through some magical means.

Adding planets with untapped resources could be problematic though, since i don't that much about Trek. So we'll just assume they can keep manufacturing/mining as much of their respective resources as they have before.

EDIT: Actually, i'm changing this to get something a wee bit more interesting going. There will be an additional 20% of every resource each race uses on unclaimed planets and all resources can be used by both sides. In essence, the Trek side might get their hands on some Naquadah and the Gate side can get their hands on whatever trek likes to use.

Can't remember how many Kull warriors he created. We know he can create them from Tartarus. Since planets are blank, there's no Tartarus, and as thus, the Kull warriors will die within weeks.

Remember, i said that all assets each side has is included. This means that if Anubis somehow relied on a planet or whatever was on that planet for industry or whatnot, it will exist in this scenario. Same goes for trek side.

So Anubis has the six eyes, ergo his planet ravaging ship.

Aye.

You said in the OP that there's a stargate network in that blank galaxy. Can you provide more info on that?

More info? Hmm. It will connect 'thousands' of planets (most of which are terraformed) to each other and the gates will be spread out equally in the galaxy, geographically speaking.

Both sides will control an equal number when things start and many more will be located on neutral territory.

I wasn't really thinking about Atlantis but about the Antartica outpost. But following your clarification, there's not such an outpost anymore. Only Atlantis, with 3 ZPMs.

Err... well, I don't know if you know my position on this, but I'm not ashamed at all to consider that a fully powered Atlantis could easily shrugg off Death Star beams.

Oh, i've seen your position on it. :P

Ok, how about this, if Atlantis wanks things too much, then replace it by the Ancient outpost instead. If it appears that the Trek side is overwhelming, include it. The three ZPM's if it's not included? One will power the outpost, and one will be on-board a the Odyssey the third one will vanish.

They just search for the enemy and shoot it down, right? They know what they are. They won't engage into potential First Contact procedures and friendly chatter.

I should really make things more detailed in my OPs. :P

Let's say they know about their enemies and roughly what they are capable off. Nothing detailed, just the very basics. No first contact, just war.

Is the SG teams using Kull armor considering tech sharing?
Or are all sides allies in the sense that they won't shoot each other, but never exchange anything?

They can work together, tactically, in any way possibly conceivable, but they can't share any tech. If i'd make one exception then i'd have to start making more so that's a big no-no.

Btw, are we allowed the Unending Odyssey?

Like i said earlier, i'm not sure. The tech it has is so far beyond almost everything else in all of SGverse that it seems like cheating. It's not a ship i consider "lower-tier" anymore.

Let's do it like we did with Atlantis. It's off-limits for now, but if this becomes to much in favor of Trek and the debate is killed, include it.

[l33telboi]

Wait, why not the Dominion? Although slightly more advanced than the Federation they are still roughly on the same level, besides if the Goa’uld, Wraith and Tau’ri can make an alliance I don’t see any reason to not include the Dominion on this, after all they are on the same galaxy as the FKR Alliance while the Wraith are from another galaxy relative to the other SG races. And I’m thinking more in the lines of alliance in the sense that “they won't shoot each other, but never exchange anything”, things are already very complicated as it is, never mind tech sharing.

Well, because i initially wanted it to be 3 factions vs. 3 factions. I even thought it a bit unfair since the Tau'ri are quite weak as a whole (only three ships). So adding another faction to the Trek side will become a bit dissproportionate. Let's just see how things kick off. We can always modify the scenario later on to make it more interesting, if things seem to be too one-sided.

Tech sharing is out, but the sides of each verse are working in full cooperation with each other.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So basically, all planets are... there, but like if no one inhabited them, right?

Aye. The planets that are not occupied by any of the factions are empty and devoid of life. Well, sentient life in any case. However planets that were owned by each race before they were transported to this new galaxy will also be transported. SGverse Earth and Trek Earth will both exist, as will all other planets belonging to each side.

It goes under the "they will have all their assets" thingy.

Sorry, but I'm still on the "two Earths in one" part. :D

Where's UFP's Earth in comparison to Tau'ri's Earth?

More info? Hmm. It will connect 'thousands' of planets (most of which are terraformed) to each other and the gates will be spread out equally in the galaxy, geographically speaking.

Both sides will control an equal number when things start and many more will be located on neutral territory.

Do gate factions keep their advantage from knowing how to use those stargates and already having plenty of DHDs and the rest, or is Trek side at least allowed to "invent" their own version on the DHD, and to what extent (size, within ships, etc?).

Oh, i've seen your position on it. :P

Ok, how about this, if Atlantis wanks things too much, then replace it by the Ancient outpost instead. If it appears that the Trek side is overwhelming, include it. The three ZPM's if it's not included? One will power the outpost, and one will be on-board a the Odyssey the third one will vanish.

Error. Vanish function not part of a ZPM's abilities.

Can we say that the drones return home if possible? They seemed to in SG, since it was implied that the problem was not the drones, but a way to power them.

[AFT]

Yes, that would make sense then. However, it seems that there's not much critical asset left anymore, since the galaxy is blank. You basically have wild worlds, where you can grab food.
No more HQs whatsoever.

What only ships and perhaps starbases? What about all the infrastructure to keep those ships going?

[sonofccn]

This is 3 weeks with a ZPM powering the ship, though, not without.

IIRC with a ZPM it would only take an Earth ship 3 days to reach the pegasus galaxy and the 3 week travel time is human power only.

Really? I thought it was 3 weeks with ZPM.

No I think it was 3-4 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus_c ... er#History