ST vs. SG Scenario

[AFT]

I'd actually suggest to watch all seasons, safe the latest of the lastest super final episode.
Not saying that the show was going downhill since several seasons (seriously, only The Shroud reminded me of good ol' episodes... of course, it had nice humour, action and characters we all know and love), but this one... well, you got to be prepared.

More or less I’ve seen seasons one through eight and a few episodes of SG Atlantis. So, you’re saying that the last seasons are not that good except for the very last episode? If that so, what episodes are needed to see to follow the main plotline at least?

[l33telboi]

Sorry, but I'm still on the "two Earths in one" part. :D

Where's UFP's Earth in comparison to Tau'ri's Earth?

On the opposite sides of the galaxy of course. :P

Do gate factions keep their advantage from knowing how to use those stargates and already having plenty of DHDs and the rest, or is Trek side at least allowed to "invent" their own version on the DHD, and to what extent (size, within ships, etc?).

It'd be pointless for all races to have gate-access if some don't know how to or can't use them. So all gates will come with their own, easy-to-use DHD's. Both sides can do whatever they want with the gates. Buteeh, let's keep the "Fire them into black holes and dial an enemy fortified planet!" tricks to a minimum.

I swear, that was all the debate focused on at the end of the SB debate.

Can we say that the drones return home if possible? They seemed to in SG, since it was implied that the problem was not the drones, but a way to power them.

I think this is something better not decided by the op. But rather something you can debate your way to.

Oh, and i edited my previous response to you regarding resources, check it out if you missed it.

[l33telboi]

I suggest all of you read my latest replies to Mr. O, in regards to OP clarifications. Many things, like the question AFT asked about industry, are answered in those.

Sorry for the vague OP at the start.

[sonofccn]

So just to see if I have all this straight we have the Goa'uld with roughly 500-1000 ships with shields in the Teraton plus range. Correct?

Then we have the Wraith with 60 hiveships an a large assormtent of cruisers so alteast another 100-200 ships and the hiveships atleast are comparable to ha'tak ships. Correct?

Then we have Earth with three ships,atleast one is maxed out with Asgaurd weapons and all should be equiped with Asgaurd shields which are roughly twice as strong as an Ha'tak's if Ori weapons are anything to go by. Correct?

Vs-
The FKR alliance which can muster around 30,000 vessels with higher end calcs place at low gigaton per second outputs.

Or atleast by midlevel calcs capable of thriple digit megaton firepower.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes, that would make sense then. However, it seems that there's not much critical asset left anymore, since the galaxy is blank. You basically have wild worlds, where you can grab food.
No more HQs whatsoever.

What only ships and perhaps starbases? What about all the infrastructure to keep those ships going?

I think I was too extreme in my interpretation of the OP. Ask l33tboi for clarification.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'd actually suggest to watch all seasons, safe the latest of the lastest super final episode.
Not saying that the show was going downhill since several seasons (seriously, only The Shroud reminded me of good ol' episodes... of course, it had nice humour, action and characters we all know and love), but this one... well, you got to be prepared.

More or less I’ve seen seasons one through eight and a few episodes of SG Atlantis. So, you’re saying that the last seasons are not that good except for the very last episode? If that so, what episodes are needed to see to follow the main plotline at least?

No. I think the last three seasons have a couple of good episodes, many boring fillers, but the episode ending the show... you must think, you must believe you're prepared to anything. That's all I can say.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So just to see if I have all this straight we have the Goa'uld with roughly 500-1000 ships with shields in the Teraton plus range. Correct?

Then we have the Wraith with 60 hiveships an a large assormtent of cruisers so alteast another 100-200 ships and the hiveships atleast are comparable to ha'tak ships. Correct?

Then we have Earth with three ships,atleast one is maxed out with Asgaurd weapons and all should be equiped with Asgaurd shields which are roughly twice as strong as an Ha'tak's if Ori weapons are anything to go by. Correct?

Vs-
The FKR alliance which can muster around 30,000 vessels with higher end calcs place at low gigaton per second outputs.

Or atleast by midlevel calcs capable of thriple digit megaton firepower.

The gate side also has Anubis' supership.
It has a main weapon array that can do two things.
First, it can fire flash arcs of energy at ha'taks, bypasses their shields, and blows them in one shot. The lightning bolts can even jump to a second ship.
Secondly, it has a main function were all those weapon emitters focus and fuse into some sort of beam that strikes a target, able to destroy a stargate (so in theory we would not be far from a gatebuster yield).

It does no immediate damage, but on the contraray, builds up some kind of chain reaction, and then sends a pulse down the beam which does damage to the surface of planets, through some funky mechanism that both destroys the stargate (though the effects were not seen) and seems to propagate concussion shockwaves through the ground by staged ripples.

Given the events in Full Circle, I'd say this whole weapon array has at least the ability to strike at orbital ranges.

It has shields that can withstand without pain the bombardment of twelve ha'taks.

By this time, Anubis also access to a planet where a device can dial to another stargate and slowly build up energy inside the targeted energy, which will finally make the stargate explode.

The Wraith have light ships, bigger than darts, able to carry several individuals, and apparently equipped with some weapons considering the agressive behaviour it displayed against the Daedalus earlier on in the episode Aurora.

Hiveships, which are 11 km long, have an impressive amount of darts.
Conservative calculations, based only on a fraction of the volume, would give each hiveships many tens of thousand of darts. Of course, in the show, the Wraith seem to have not bothered respleneshing their loads with ships since a long time, so they kinda send only a hundred or maybe two tops.
Any unshielded world will be under problem though, because of the swarming tactic.
They do not hesitate to leave the darts attacking a world, while moving capital ships out of the way.
Wraith pilots won't hesitate to go kamikaze if necessary.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So what about the planets that are allowed in that scenario?

• Tau'ri
  
  Well, Earth, obviously. With the lantian outpost, at least. With a ZPM, I suppose.
  
  An alpha base, with the ability to launch a couple of F-302s.
  
  The planets where naqahdria (Langara), Naqahdah and trinium are found (primitive worlds).
• Goa'uld
  
  It's very interesting. There's Dakara, but it's unused, though under control of Anubis. His plan may have existed since he returned.
  Oh. He has control over Dakara.
  
  There's that planet, as cited earlier on, that has the gate busting device.
  
  Delmak. The most densely populated goa'uld world to date, which, for all intents and purposes, must have a planetary shield of some sort (Apophis, who had escaped from Sokar's ship orbiting Netu, quietly stared at the wave of plasma, debris and country-sized debris of the now destroyed moon rushing towards the planet).
  
  All those worlds under goa'uld control, which have nothing special safe towns or camps filled with Jaffa, and eventually hovering ha'tak drydocks.
  
  The asteroid field where Anubis picked that naqahdah filled asteroid which he tugged to our stellar system.
  
  Tartarus, Anubis' HQ, where he devlopped his Kull warriors.
• Wraith
  
  Nothing essential for the moment, as they're pretty much capable of a nomadic lifestyle, with their hiveships.
  
  Plus they're all in Pegasus.

[AFT]

It seems that those higher ends would be peaks that cannot be sustained for long periods; for cruising you know. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense.

Ah, reading AFT's post, it seems that we share the same view on that.

Well, just to make clear one thing about my thoughts about Warp drive: I don’t think that starships are going to run out of fuel by going at maximum warp for a few hours or days, only during extraordinary circumstances that is going to be a problem. Obviously, the kind of situation that Voyager faced, something that couldn’t be foreseen or anticipated in any way. So, Voyager’s designers didn’t include that when the Intrepid class or any other class for that matter, was on the drawing board. But since most Federation starships as well as the Intrepid class are meant for long range exploration, they more than probably are designed to be able to operate for an unknown number of years beyond the Federation borders on their own, after all the original Constitution class could operate for 5 years without any external support. But I highly doubt that traveling at maximum warp for all those years was anywhere on the mission profile for starships designed for long range exploration, never mind the ships meant for short term operations. That would explain way Voyager was on good shape and the Equinox was on deep problems. So, in short, while Warp drive is impractical for long distances and clearly not an intergalactic drive, Federation starships can make use of their best speeds comfortably for years before forced to face the same problems that Voyager had. Meaning that ships of the Intrepid class for example, can use their cruise speed of warp 9.975 for that long. However, the newer Federation starships are way faster than previous models, so my previous comment of splitting fast and slow ships still stands.

[Jedi Master Spock]

As far as top speed in the 23rd century went, Scotty could redline the engines for somewhere around 12-48 hours or a distance of 1-2 kLY. "That Which Survives" is a ~1 kLY sprint, "Arena" a ~1.5 kLY sprint, and "Obsession" a ~2 kLY sprint.

IIRC, Scotty wasn't complaining about running out of fuel, but of the engines falling apart at that point; Voyager's stated 70 years to get home is not the only such long-haul figure. Warp drive can apparently run a long time with nothing more than interstellar hydrogen to ramscoop. (Little known fact: They do have Bussards.)

[AFT]

OK. These means that while the FKR Alliance has the upper hand on ships count they also have way more planets and assets to defend. Assuming that all the minor colonies are either evacuated or not present as they don’t contribute to the war effort and therefore not included on the OP, that still means more than 150 major planets for the Federation alone, including the Klingons and the Romulans it can go as high as 300 or more. So, how many ships can be spared to defend that many planets? My ship estimations are: 12,000 for the Federation, some 8,000 for the Klingons and about 6,000 for the Romulans. A grand total of some 26,000 starships, well within the rough ballpark figure of about 20,000-30,000 ships deployed during the DW. Assuming only 300 major planets and most assets on or nearby those planets, we get about 85 ships available to defend every possible critical target, but what about offensive operations? Well, let say that about 60% of the available ships are committed to defense and the rest assembled for offensive operations, we get an average of some 52 ships to defend those targets. Obviously depending on the relative importance of each target, its defenses can range from task forces of around 10 ships to fleets of several hundreds, not counting any fixed or orbital defenses it might have. That leaves some 10,000 ships to conduct offensive operations. But what about all the logistical concerns for all those ships? Well, the ships more likely to require extensive down-time periods are the older and therefore slower ships on each fleet, but since they are going to defend their own territories and obviously to count with all the infrastructure support that they might need I don’t think that is going to be an issue, at least for them. The other ships are another story, as much as the 50% is not going to be available at any given time, leaving some 5,000 ships available to strike enemy territories. Reading Mr. Oragahn post, the SG side has about only 10-20 major targets.
So, the question is: Could the SG side crack the FKR Alliance defenses with an average of 52 ships per target plus any fixed installations that they might have, while resisting attacks from fleets numbering 250-500 ships in strength? I’ll leave that answer, for now, to the more expert members on the topic of weapons and shields strengths.

[AFT]

As far as top speed in the 23rd century went, Scotty could redline the engines for somewhere around 12-48 hours or a distance of 1-2 kLY. "That Which Survives" is a ~1 kLY sprint, "Arena" a ~1.5 kLY sprint, and "Obsession" a ~2 kLY sprint.

IIRC, Scotty wasn't complaining about running out of fuel, but of the engines falling apart at that point; Voyager's stated 70 years to get home is not the only such long-haul figure. Warp drive can apparently run a long time with nothing more than interstellar hydrogen to ramscoop. (Little known fact: They do have Bussards.)

Then, it still makes sense that Voyager could have pushed its cruise speed of warp 9.975 for a whole year without running out of fuel but effectively crippling its engines: warp coils, dilithium chamber, whatever. So, after traveling about some 30,000 light years, nearly 2/5 of the distance they have to go to reach the AQ in only one year, maybe less, they would find themselves effectively stranded at that point since there is no guarantee that they would be able to find all the spare part or resources to reconstruct the Warp drive at that point, never mind the proper installations to do so. A too big of a risk to take, no wonder why they were so worried about the prospect of traveling that distance. And explains perfectly why it would take them that long to get home and why Federation starships seem to travel within their territory with relatively ease.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Well, in the case of Voyager, the problem on the extended cruise becomes fuel, in addition to assorted problems with damage etc. Voyager was supposed to only go three years between normal refueling. In general, Voyager suggests really bad milage for higher speeds, but it's hard to mesh neatly with all the TOS journeys to the outside of the galaxy and back. The Enterprise only ran out of fuel once or twice.

[AFT]

Well, in the case of Voyager, the problem on the extended cruise becomes fuel, in addition to assorted problems with damage etc. Voyager was supposed to only go three years between normal refueling. In general, Voyager suggests really bad milage for higher speeds, but it's hard to mesh neatly with all the TOS journeys to the outside of the galaxy and back. The Enterprise only ran out of fuel once or twice.

Did the Enterprise actually traveled outside of the galaxy and back? I don’t remember something like that...Could you mention the episode where this happen?

[Mr. Oragahn]

IIRC with a ZPM it would only take an Earth ship 3 days to reach the pegasus galaxy and the 3 week travel time is human power only.

Really? I thought it was 3 weeks with ZPM.

No I think it was 3-4 days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus_c ... er#History

I've seen lots of people use this fact as an argument, along shielding abilities when used in conjunction with ZPMs, to nerf the ZPMs.

Basically, it goes as such that if a system with a ZPM dfoes X, and if the same system without a ZPM does Y, then the ZPM can only do Z.

What is always overlooked, both for shields and hyperdrives, is that there's no proof whatsoever that those systems are near 100% efficient when coupled to a ZPM, taking the best out of those power sources.

It could be very well that the limiting factor is the technology using the ZPM, not the ZPM itself.
Not everyone, especially not humans, are expected to come with a technology that can handle the full power output of a ZPM.