Klingon invasion of Armageddon

[Kahless]

Hey! Decided to create one of these debates, and so I thought I would use the big one going on right now as a yardstick. What would happen if the Klingon empire fully deployed itself in an invasion of that Armageddon world instead of the Orks? Would they win? And if so, how easily?

[Narsil]

Are you fucking kidding?

Klingons going against fully armoured and armed Space Marines? It's madness...

[sonofccn]

So if I am understanding you, this is the entire klingon empire resources versus a single planet? So every ship the empire has and every warrior will be commited?

Are you fucking kidding?

Klingons going against fully armoured and armed Space Marines? It's madness...

Space marines will form a small percentage of the plantary defense force. I would be more worried by the legions of imperial guard and local millitias.

[Jedi Master Spock]

And I would suggest being more worried about the comparison between Imperial naval forces and the invading Klingon fleet, as Trek invasion forces tend to heavily rely upon - and heavily use - orbital superiority in a way that WH40K forces tend not to, focusing instead on ground warfare.

So what are we dealing with? A "typical" Klingon invasion force, the entire Klingon Empire, a Klingon-to-Ork replacement of the force based on either ships or individual troops? We need more detail to say anything.

[Kahless]

Since its an apparently tough nut to crack, I would say the full weight of the Klingon Empire.

Klingons going against fully armoured and armed Space Marines?

Could their armor really withstand Klingon disruptors?

[Narsil]

Could their armor really withstand Klingon disruptors?

Probably. They have problems with packing crates, don't they?

[Gniops]

And I would suggest being more worried about the comparison between Imperial naval forces and the invading Klingon fleet, as Trek invasion forces tend to heavily rely upon - and heavily use - orbital superiority in a way that WH40K forces tend not to, focusing instead on ground warfare.

What exactly do you base this little gem on ?


Heh, its probably the Klingons only hope mind, as I doubt they could even conceive of equipping millions of troops with rebreathers and enviromental protection ?

Never mind actually training them and deploying them.

Hell, I bet the Orks still on Armageddon could actually beat back a ground assault, short of the Klingons ever so slowly blasting them from orbit.


Say I give you lot the benefit of the doubt, what exactly "could" the Klingons put forward in terms of troops and vessels. i.e. how many of them are there, and what are they capable of ?

[Kahless]

Probably. They have problems with packing crates, don't they?

That is probably because in those instances, they were operating at low power settings during a firefight to conserve ammo. Especially given other instances where they devastate rock and easily melt steel.

Plus, there has to be the typical light breach of SoD in these instances. How many times in shows have we seen people taking cover behind light furniture when under fire from machine guns? Plus, one would think that in some high risk places, they would utilize high durability packing crates to ensure safe delivery.

At any rate, there are a lot of more instances of high firepower than any "packing crates" being indestructible. How many times do we see this phenomenon anyway?

[Mike DiCenso]

Point of order here: Klingon disruptors have never been shown to "have trouble with packing crates". The weapons in question were the Jem'Hadar's phase poleron beam rifles against some barrel-like objects.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

What exactly do you base this little gem on ?

Frequent use of close orbital support.

Not to mention the nasty habit of orbital bombardment Klingons have been known to get into. They can be positively bloodyminded sometimes. A single Klingon vessel wiped out every single trace of life on a planet in "The Chase" simply to prevent rivals from getting a look at the DNA originating there.

Heh, its probably the Klingons only hope mind, as I doubt they could even conceive of equipping millions of troops with rebreathers and enviromental protection ?

If it's a "whole Empire" scenario, quite possibly. Cardassians, definitely. Klingons may or may not have a similar taste for deploying large numbers of infantry.

Say I give you lot the benefit of the doubt, what exactly "could" the Klingons put forward in terms of troops and vessels. i.e. how many of them are there, and what are they capable of ?

The whole Empire is able to field an offensive fighting force of a couple thousand warships. Ground troops are unclear.

During the Klingon-Cardassian war, the Klingons conquered a significant number of worlds in days, and the Cardassians use Orders with a strength of 500,000, but it's not clear whether the Klingons actually landed millions of troops, or simply used starships to scour all resisting forces.

[KILL YOUR PARENTS]

What exactly do you base this little gem on ?

Frequent use of close orbital support.

Would you kindly provide examples?

[Typhonis]

Actually Imperial and Ork forces DO use orbital support in 40K. Refference Epic Armageddon where Naval fleet units can be purchased for use in orbital bombardment. Imperial Guard have Lunar class cruisers and Emperor Class battleships to call on. Space Marines have Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers to call on.

This doesnt count air assset that the humans can call upoin Thunderbolt fighters, Maruader Bombers and Thunderhawk gunships. Also Valkyrie attack skimmers and Vulture transports that will be catrrying carapace armored Karskin.


The Klingons will face trained human soldiers and Space marines on this planet. This doesn`t count the 4 Titan legions, 5 commandery`s of Sisters of Battle, ordo Xenos kill teams officio assasninorium agents , combat psychics and such available.

By no stretch of the imagination will this be in any way easy for the Klingons.

References Epic Armageddon pages 70 foce dispositions after the First Season of Fire during the Second Invasion by Ghaghkull.

Page 131 Codex Astartes Arny list.

Page 135 Steel Legion Army List.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I think the first question about the Imperial forces, frankly, is this:

How many Imperial ships are actually stationed in the system?

What exactly do you base this little gem on ?

Frequent use of close orbital support.

Would you kindly provide examples?

Start, as always, with the older ones:
"A Piece of the Action" (accurate stun phaser infantry support)
"The Alternative Factor" (accurate non-stun phaser ground strike against infantry-sized target)
"The Cage" (ship provides power for a ground weapon)
"Star Trek V" (accurate photon torpedo ground support)

We have very limited evidence about ST ground forces, but it seems like the Federation normally leans heavily on orbital support.

The Klingons, long-time Federation rivals who use the most similar technology of any of the other major factions, and who also tend to favor small ships (which then have low troop transport capacity in multi-purpose roles), are likely to be similar. If anything, I'm betting Klingons will be more likely to use their starships in close support of any widespread ground warfare, because Klingon Birds of Prey (one of the most common classes) are quite comfortable in atmosphere.

Weighing against that, we have the Klingons' well known love of close combat. Much will depend on the choice of commanding officer(s) for the Klingon forces - and the precise mission in mind.

Is the goal the conquest of Armageddon? The annihilation of Imperial ground forces or strategic asset denial? Training Space Marines to quote Hamlet frequently?

[KILL YOUR PARENTS]

Frequent use of close orbital support.

Would you kindly provide examples?

Start, as always, with the older ones:
"A Piece of the Action" (accurate stun phaser infantry support)
"The Alternative Factor" (accurate non-stun phaser ground strike against infantry-sized target)
"The Cage" (ship provides power for a ground weapon)
"Star Trek V" (accurate photon torpedo ground support)

We have very limited evidence about ST ground forces, but it seems like the Federation normally leans heavily on orbital support.

Your evidence that the Federation often uses orbital support in ground combat situations is a handful of occasions that involve a ship zapping something on the ground? Do you not see the problem with this?

I'd also ask why, to the best of my recollection, there was no evidence of Starfleet doing anything like you describe during the Dominion war.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Hey! Decided to create one of these debates, and so I thought I would use the big one going on right now as a yardstick. What would happen if the Klingon empire fully deployed itself in an invasion of that Armageddon world instead of the Orks? Would they win? And if so, how easily?

I like versus debs, but I like a bit of info on both sides though. What's this version of Armag now?