Klingon invasion of Armageddon

[Typhonis]

I would also advise that you set some limitations, else the Klingons are in for an extremly nasty surprise by way of Chaos.


As it stands, depending on wether or not mImperial reinforcementa are going to come. Armageddon could turn into a planetwide vesrsion of The Marne or Verdun. These aren`t Federation humans the Klingons are fighting, this is the Imperium of Man. A society that has been waging one form of warfare or another since the grand crusade strted off about 10,000 years earlier.

These are soldiers that face Ork hordes, Dark Eldar raiding parties, Chaos incursions, and Tyranid invasions. This is an integrated fighting force complete with armour and artillery assets. They will also have friendly naval units fihting the Klingons as well as well as planetary defense systems shootin at the klingon ships.

Can they conquer it? In my opinion no. They won`t and I expect a large toll in Klingon casyalties as a result.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Your evidence that the Federation often uses orbital support in ground combat situations is a handful of occasions that involve a ship zapping something on the ground? Do you not see the problem with this?

Nope. We have very limited information on Trek ground forces. That's why Trek VS scenarios involving ground forces involve so much loose speculation based on away missions.

I'd also ask why, to the best of my recollection, there was no evidence of Starfleet doing anything like you describe during the Dominion war.

We don't see any major ground assaults in all our airtime.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I would also advise that you set some limitations, else the Klingons are in for an extremly nasty surprise by way of Chaos.

Oh?

As it stands, depending on wether or not mImperial reinforcementa are going to come. Armageddon could turn into a planetwide vesrsion of The Marne or Verdun.

From what I've read, Imperial reinforcements can't be expected to show up very quickly.

IMO, this scenario looks to have five possible cases. I'll give you what I think the probabilities are.

One. Klingons land insufficent or ill-equipped ground troops, who charge in with Bat'Leths and get massacred. Reasonably likely, 25%.

Two. Klingons land enough troops, tanks, etc and behave in a sensible enough manner to possibly conquer Armageddon in conventional Warhammer style with support from their space and air superiority. I think this is the least likely of the five. Generously, maybe 10%.

Three. Klingons burn out Armageddon, destroying all ground assets with a handful of cloaked ships. They then land ground forces / terraforming crews after luring, chasing away, or destroying the Imperium space based assets. This is most likely given a clever and ruthless Klingon general. At this point, I'd say 30% if we're assuming this is a very serious effort by the Klingons.

Four. Klingons burn out Armageddon, but withdraw. Call this one a draw. 20%.

Five. Klingons come in, decide they don't want to tangle with the Imperium fleet or are handed heavy losses in space, and don't vindictively burn out Armageddon. Call this one 15%.

[Typhonis]

Cloaked ships cannot fire and the only two examples of ships that can fire while cloaked. The Romulan ship from Nemesis and Changs bird of Prey were destroyed. So reverse engineering that device is impossible. they would have to be built from scrath and that will take time.

Also luring away the ships is useless since their are ground based and fixed orbital defense assets as well.

The question becomes how many ships do the Klingons commit? What intelligence do they have on the target planet? Where are said defense forces located and what is their strength? To give you some hard numbers on the defense troops...

Epic Armageddon page 70

Ash Waste militia 13 regiments
command guard 5 companies
Hive militia 289 regiments
Ork hunters 11 regiments
Steel Legion 56 regiments.

Space assets 1 Retribution class BB
1 Apocalypse class BB
1 Emperor class BB
1 Oberon class BB

6 first line cruiser squadrons
9 second line cruiser squadrons
17 light cruiser squadrons
21 escort squadrons
54 bomber strike wings
81 interceptor strike wings.

According to the old books 1 IG regioment contained approx 10,000 men.

It will not be an easy fight on the ground or in space.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Cloaked ships cannot fire and the only two examples of ships that can fire while cloaked. The Romulan ship from Nemesis and Changs bird of Prey were destroyed. So reverse engineering that device is impossible. they would have to be built from scrath and that will take time.

Ships that uncloak, fire, and then re-cloak can do so in a very short amount of time. On the plus side, if the Klingons are providing a conventional war with millions of troops landing, cloaked ships can disembark troops while remaining cloaked. (See STVI.)

Also luring away the ships is useless since their are ground based and fixed orbital defense assets as well.

Fixed orbital assets are sitting ducks. Ground based assets will not survive Armageddon being burned out.

The question becomes how many ships do the Klingons commit? What intelligence do they have on the target planet? Where are said defense forces located and what is their strength? To give you some hard numbers on the defense troops...

Thank you very much for providing hard numbers.

Epic Armageddon page 70

Ash Waste militia 13 regiments
command guard 5 companies
Hive militia 289 regiments
Ork hunters 11 regiments
Steel Legion 56 regiments.

OK, so that's 374 regiments. Total range for a regiment size is 500-10,000 (WH40K is a little less than consistent) meaning we have basically 200,000-4 million troops on the ground.

On the one hand, that's more than we expect the Klingons to transport in BoPs and Vor'Chas; on the other hand, it's less than the most that they could possibly supply at the absolute most. 10% is generous but reasonable for the Klingons rounding up enough ground troops to match the Guard.

Space assets 1 Retribution class BB
1 Apocalypse class BB
1 Emperor class BB
1 Oberon class BB

6 first line cruiser squadrons
9 second line cruiser squadrons
17 light cruiser squadrons
21 escort squadrons
54 bomber strike wings
81 interceptor strike wings.

According to the old books 1 IG regioment contained approx 10,000 men.

It will not be an easy fight on the ground or in space.

Squadron of ships is 2-6 if I don't miss my mark. Fighters/bombers seem to be 8-12.

So that's 4 battleships, 60-200 cruisers, 20-130 escorts, and 1000-1500 small craft, which is most likely a match for the entire Klingon Imperial Fleet of a few thousand capital ships... but I don't think they'll linger around the planet if the Klingons sneak a couple ships by, burn Armageddon, and then strafe and run with a noticable fleet.

[Kahless]

A society that has been waging one form of warfare or another since the grand crusade strted off about 10,000 years earlier.

And yet they have not progressed past crude WW1 style trench warfare, which would be at a severe tactical disadvantage against Klingon units beaming down behind their static lines. An enemy behind your lines has always been devastating and with these kinds of inflexible formations, it would turn into a slaughter.

40K from my wiki-ing (What is the right way to spell that anyway?) doesn't have prevalent, 100% reliable transporter systems. Which means that their usage in general will prove to be quite a psychological shock. Imagine scores of warriors appearing from nowhere and cutting down your compatriots with ease. It would be demoralizing to the extreme.

[Typhonis]

My mistake 280 regiments of militia.

There were additional Guard and Marine forces listed but I personally have no idea if they were present before the 2nd invasion or not. This is why I only listed the Armnageddon guard forces and the space assets.

Yes popping in, decloaking and bugging out is the only succesful method the Klingons have if they want to burn the planet. Land and take it? Is a horse of a different color I`m affraid.
However depedning on how they burn it is also a factor. The planet is a hive world. Settled long ago, thousands of years, it is covered in towering cities , factory complexes and the remaining area is ash waste desert.


As for Chaos it can affect just about anything. Remeber the reason psykers are hunted down so viscopusly and cults are stomped is becuse of the very real danger Chaos presents. The latest example is Abbadons 13th Black Crusade against the planet Cadia and of course the most infamnous event The Hourus Heresey.

[Typhonis]

A society that has been waging one form of warfare or another since the grand crusade strted off about 10,000 years earlier.

And yet they have not progressed past crude WW1 style trench warfare, which would be at a severe tactical disadvantage against Klingon units beaming down behind their static lines. An enemy behind your lines has always been devastating and with these kinds of inflexible formations, it would turn into a slaughter.

40K from my wiki-ing (What is the right way to spell that anyway?) doesn't have prevalent, 100% reliable transporter systems. Which means that their usage in general will prove to be quite a psychological shock. Imagine scores of warriors appearing from nowhere and cutting down your compatriots with ease. It would be demoralizing to the extreme.

Not exactly WW1 style trench warfare. It depedns on the planetary guard regiment, the local conditons and what they are fighting . you have mechanised and armor units in the guard. Ground support aircraft and flyers as well as heavy artillery and aerospace assets.

As for a teleport attack, depends on the troops. Raw conscripts will panick, normal guard will be surprised as would karskin then they will return fire. Space Marines would only be shocked the enmey teleported in before attacking. They are not as primitive as you think

Armageddon is a relatively high tech world and 40k teleporters work differently than Trek ones...because Khaless help the Klingons if they work the same.

[Jedi Master Spock]

However depedning on how they burn it is also a factor. The planet is a hive world. Settled long ago, thousands of years, it is covered in towering cities , factory complexes and the remaining area is ash waste desert.

Self-sustaining plasma weapons, probably trilithium based, are one of the strongest possibilities. We saw the Klingons burn an innocent world using one of those in "The Chase." More conventional bombardments are also possible.

As for Chaos it can affect just about anything. Remeber the reason psykers are hunted down so viscopusly and cults are stomped is becuse of the very real danger Chaos presents. The latest example is Abbadons 13th Black Crusade against the planet Cadia and of course the most infamnous event The Hourus Heresey.

So we have to consider the possibility of Chaos Klingons, which would be a loss for quite possibly both the Klingon Empire and the Imperium.

[Typhonis]

Chaos Klingons work in the Imperiums favor though. The Imperium has experience dealing with Chaos, the Klingons dont.

Of course the IOM troops may very well think this is a xenos culture that worships Khorne to begin with.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Chaos Klingons work in the Imperiums favor though. The Imperium has experience dealing with Chaos, the Klingons dont.

Of course the IOM troops may very well think this is a xenos culture that worships Khorne to begin with.

If the convertions, for a lack of better term, occurs on the ground, it's actually in the advantage of the Klingons. If they play it smart, they can attack positions which might be weakened.

Ultimately, they still can pound the world from above.

If it occurs inside Klingon ships - again, excuse my utter lack of knowledge here on WH40K - then it's bad for the Klingons.

[Typhonis]

Problem is the IOM has an advantage on the ground and in space. Aropund this planet is a space defence force equal to anything the Klingons can throw at them and reinforcements will be inbound because the Klingons have no way to jam Imperial FTL comms.

On the ground they face a dedicated force equiped with the full spectrum of weapons, automatice infantry rifles, pistols for sidearms, heavy repeaters in emp[lacements or that can be easily moved about. Flamthrowers, grenade launchers, and the training to use it along with the vehicles one would expect of a current military force, tanks, Apcs, air support.

Klingons will have to fight hard and fast against a foe that is their equal in training and has a huge population base. Reinforcements will be inbound and some of the first units may very well be Astartes...that would be even worse for the klingons.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Problem is the IOM has an advantage on the ground and in space. Aropund this planet is a space defence force equal to anything the Klingons can throw at them and reinforcements will be inbound because the Klingons have no way to jam Imperial FTL comms.

On the ground they face a dedicated force equiped with the full spectrum of weapons, automatice infantry rifles, pistols for sidearms, heavy repeaters in emp[lacements or that can be easily moved about. Flamthrowers, grenade launchers, and the training to use it along with the vehicles one would expect of a current military force, tanks, Apcs, air support.

Klingons will have to fight hard and fast against a foe that is their equal in training and has a huge population base. Reinforcements will be inbound and some of the first units may very well be Astartes...that would be even worse for the klingons.

Considering that I know little about both universes, it seems that the question is solved when we see which side wins the spacebattle.

Then, even if the Klingons win, they have to act quick to prevent reinforcements from reversing the tide.

Besides, the Klingons are trying to conquer that world, as I get it. I don't know if orbital bombardment and wasting the surface fits with such a plan.

[Typhonis]

Depends on what you mean by wasting the surface. The surface is already wasted. Think movie Judge Dread. Life is split betweeen the hives, massive factory complexes and the ash waste deserts. Groundwise Armageddon troops are known to be highly mechanised forces.


Spacebattle will be nasty in the extreme. Certainly fixed defenses have their weaknesses however here they are close to the target you wish to attack thus skirting around them is problematic. IOM ships are fairly robust some have been in service for many centuries and are called on to fight a more technologically advanced enemy, Necrontyr and Eldar.

[GStone]

How fast in space are the IOM's space vehicles at the time of Armageddon?