Worf vs. Hagrid

[Opecoiler]

Worf vs. Hagrid from Harry Potter.

In one scenario, they're both unarmed. In another, Worf has a bat'leth and Hagrid a thick wooden staff.

Who wins?

[Narsil]

Hagrid has a reach, size and strength advantage, being a half-giant. If he has his umbrella on him, he also has access to his various (unreliable) magical powers as he is ultimately a wizard, and thus quite capable of using it. The main thing here is, however, that Hagrid has kept - in the past - Buckbeak the Hippogriff, Norbert the Dragon, Fluffy the Cerberus and Aragog the Acromantula as pets. He also happened to take care of his half-brother Grawp.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Worf vs. Hagrid from Harry Potter.

In one scenario, they're both unarmed. In another, Worf has a bat'leth and Hagrid a thick wooden staff.

Who wins?

Do you think this is a fair fight? Could you please provide information on Agrid, for example?

Why don't you pit in SW character against some random other universe character or group?
It's not a pure Trek board here.

[Trinoya]

Going off of the original post, Hagrid wins the first battle. Hagrid is a pacifist at heart and abhors violence per virtually every single instance of him, he only fights for defense of himself or others, or if brought to true rage, which I believe we only saw once in the latter case. Unarmed, he keeps worf at a distance, never killing him, and simply trying to avoid him.

In the second scenario, Worf kills Hagrid. Quickly. I've no doubt Hagrid would try to make a fight of it, but Worf is trained to kill... Hagrid is not.

[Opecoiler]

Could you please provide information on Agrid, for example?

Here's the first example of his physical strength I could find.

"Ah, shut up, Dursley, yeh great prune," said the giant; he reached over the back of the sofa, jerked the gun out of Uncle Vernon's hands, bent it into a knot as easily as if it had been made of rubber, and threw it into a corner of the room.

Going off of the original post, Hagrid wins the first battle. Hagrid is a pacifist at heart and abhors violence per virtually every single instance of him, he only fights for defense of himself or others, or if brought to true rage, which I believe we only saw once in the latter case. Unarmed, he keeps worf at a distance, never killing him, and simply trying to avoid him.

Or he could simply hit Worf not hard enough to kill him.

In the second scenario, Worf kills Hagrid. Quickly. I've no doubt Hagrid would try to make a fight of it, but Worf is trained to kill... Hagrid is not.

Unless you can prove that Worf has strength equal to or greater than the gun-bending feat I showed, than Hagrid will win. It also helps that Hagrid is carrying a much better weapon than a bat'leth. Staves are built for reach. Bat'leths aren't. [/quote]

[Trinoya]

While hard data regarding Worf and his strength is difficult to come by to say the least (since we generally don't know what various things are made up of). Some notable facts to take into consideration are:

First and foremost:
Worf accidently killed a 15 year old human by colliding with him during a game.

Worf once pushed a large metal object out of the way, one which Riker saw the need to use tools to deal with. Worf is also seen opening many large metal doors and other objects, though admittedly with some effort. Sadly, none of these objects are quantifiable.

Worf lasted in prolonged combat against numerous opponents while in prison (I believe 12 jem'hadar).

Worf is an experienced and capable warrior with extensive martial training on the use of the weapon he is armed with.

Second: This is one that I have personal experience with myself. Hagrid, who does not have martial training with his weapon, is wielding a staff. The first thing you learn with a staff is that an opponent armed with even a dagger can EASILY disarm you and you must be very wary of this fact. Worf has a high disarm record with his weapon might I add, and an even higher parry record, which is the most common way a person avoids hits with any staff based weapon.

In order to master any staff based weapon (I perfer just a sanded down stick since they are easy to grip) you need YEARS of training just to get basic attacks down, much less advanced defense. If Worf seriously considers killing Hagrid the staff, which is easy enough to break as it is, more so with Worf making the blow, it isn't too far fetched to assume that Hagrid will most likely be disarmed quickly, and subsequently left up the creek with out a paddle.

Finally, Klingons have very redundant physiology, including an 'exoskeleton' in or around their head. The hits Worf does take, and he will take them of this I have no doubt, more likely than not will not do more damage than 12 trained Jem'Hadar.

Hagrid was simply out equipped in this match, and I have no doubt in straight physical combat that even with Worfs training Hagrid will keep him at bay, but the moment Worf was given a bladed weapon... it was over.

Now then, give Hagrid his umbrella and suddenly Worf is the one who is outmatched.

[Opecoiler]

First and foremost:
Worf accidently killed a 15 year old human by colliding with him during a game.

Doesn't sound so impressive. People have been severely injured or killed during sports before.

Worf once pushed a large metal object out of the way, one which Riker saw the need to use tools to deal with. Worf is also seen opening many large metal doors and other objects, though admittedly with some effort. Sadly, none of these objects are quantifiable.

And Hagrid not only twisted a metal gun barrel into a knot, he did so with ease.

Worf lasted in prolonged combat against numerous opponents while in prison (I believe 12 jem'hadar).

And Hagrid wrestled wild forest creatures as a teenager.

I've never seen 12 Jem'Hadar bend a gun barrel so easily as Hagrid did.

Worf is an experienced and capable warrior with extensive martial training on the use of the weapon he is armed with.

Too bad the bat'leth is one of the most unergonomic and poorly-designed weapons ever, while staff-based weapons have been used for millenia.

Second: This is one that I have personal experience with myself. Hagrid, who does not have martial training with his weapon, is wielding a staff. The first thing you learn with a staff is that an opponent armed with even a dagger can EASILY disarm you and you must be very wary of this fact. Worf has a high disarm record with his weapon might I add, and an even higher parry record, which is the most common way a person avoids hits with any staff based weapon.

Too bad a staff has far more reach than a bat'leth, and is being wielded by someone far stronger to boot.

In order to master any staff based weapon (I perfer just a sanded down stick since they are easy to grip) you need YEARS of training just to get basic attacks down, much less advanced defense. If Worf seriously considers killing Hagrid the staff, which is easy enough to break as it is, more so with Worf making the blow, it isn't too far fetched to assume that Hagrid will most likely be disarmed quickly, and subsequently left up the creek with out a paddle.

Even if Hagrid just swings the staff like a bat, he still has greater reach and the oppritunity to inflict lots of pain.

Finally, Klingons have very redundant physiology, including an 'exoskeleton' in or around their head. The hits Worf does take, and he will take them of this I have no doubt, more likely than not will not do more damage than 12 trained Jem'Hadar.

Jem'hadar can be defeated by baseline humans in hand to hand. I've never seen them have as much strength as is required to bend the gun barrel like Hagrid did.

Hagrid was simply out equipped in this match, and I have no doubt in straight physical combat that even with Worfs training Hagrid will keep him at bay, but the moment Worf was given a bladed weapon... it was over.

Hagrid is a massive, hulking giant whose great strength is only improved by giving him a staff. Staves are much more ergonomic and practical than bat'leths.

[Praeothmin]

Too bad the bat'leth is one of the most unergonomic and poorly-designed weapons ever, while staff-based weapons have been used for millenia.

Funny how a Korean Martial Arts association disagrees with you.
What weapon expertise are you relying on for such an evaluation of a weapon recognized as useful by a Korean Martial Arts association.
Will you now tell us that you are better at judging this than Martial Arts Experts?
And the weapon's designer himself has been a practitioner of Martial Arts for years.
Since at SDN the degrees and diplomas held by people are of the utmost importance, then I guess this means the Bat'Leth is an efficient weapon... :)

http://www.star-trek-voyager.net/bts_batleth.htm

Here's the link where you can find the following info:

A martial arts association in Korea recognised it as one of the new bladed weapon designs in hundreds of years that is actually practical, and accepted it for certain types of competitions. And people are creating katas for it. Unfortunately most of them are what I would call choppers - they do a hard kind of karate style, when it's really intended to be more of a fluid weapon; it should be a constant motion based on tai chi principles. Also the U.S. Navy Department of Research have contacted me and asked me for a tracing of it.

[Trinoya]

OMG... you're actually attempting to say that Hagrid, a man with no serious combat training in his entire life, out of his element, and with nothing but a glorified stick is going to be able to beat Worf and his years of experience, armed with his most familiar weapon based ENTIRELY on his strength?

That's your argument?

...

You're kidding, right? No seriously, I've already proved that Worf will be able to deal with the strength issue simply by being redundant and from his own improved strength.

Lets go through this piece by piece:

You: Hagrid is stronger than Worf. Strength is all that matters for someone to win in this scenario.

Me: Strength is not all that is required to win.
Worf is still stronger than your average person.
Has years of combat experience with his weapon.
Has a redundant anatomy allowing him to absorb more damage.
Hagrid has no such combat expertise.
A staff is not an acceptable decent weapon for this exercise.
A staff can be disarmed, easily.
A staff can be damaged, easily
A staff require years of training to use properly.
Worf has on many occasions proven his ability to disarm opponents.

You: Hagrid is still stronger than Worf. Therefore he needs no training to inflict serious damage upon Worf and win. The staff is a superior weapon.


Please provide a better counter point. The battle does not go to the strong in this case. It goes to the better equipped and better trained person... or do you want to honestly believe that a master of say Kenjutsu, armed with his weapon of choice can not kill a person 10 times stronger then him armed with a staff and who has no formalized training?

I've specifically trained with bōjutsu and frankly it sucks as a preferred combat style. Most people trained in bōjutsu frequently take martial classes designed to hone their dodge and parry skills or learn secondary weapons all together for the specific reason that they will be disarmed or their weapon will be severely damaged.

I assure you any idiot dumb enough to 'swing it like a baseball bat' will be killed in seconds by someone trained with most bladed weapons. It is a defensive last resort weapon, used by FARMERS and its reach based 'advantage' is designed for NON LETHAL measures in nearly all its styles, just like pretty much ALL of its combat purposes.

Lets review the facts here.

Worf has better training.
Worf has a better weapon.
Worf has an anatomy demonstrated to cope well with damage.
Worf has clearly proven his endurance and strength on numerous occasions.
Worf is has demonstrated an adept skill as disarming opponents.
Staves are generally disarmed in combat.
Staff wielders take years to train themselves not to be.
Hagrid has never trained with a staff.
Hagrid has no significant combat experience.
Hagrid used to wrestle with forest creatures of various strengths.
Hagrid is stronger than Worf.

This isn't looking too good for Hagrid. YOU provide me with an example of Hagrids improved or better combat expertise and I might reconsider. I've read all the books, seen all the movies, and the closest I got was his encounter with Walden Macnair... Maybe I missed something from the other six books, but I doubt it, I'll reread them (again) over the weekend and tell you if I come up with anything. If you come across it before me, please tell me the page number and I assure you if it is at all valid and can wash away worfs 'years of experience advantage' I'll join you in the Hagrid camp and kick Worf in the mud like a Targ.

[Trinoya]

Pardon the double post folks. I have finished reading all the books again. I found no evidence to assist my opponent in his claim of a win for Hagrid. In fact, I found several more supporting factors for Worf at the end of everything. That said, I think this is pretty much over and done with unless my opponent should actually happen to field some new evidence, then again due to the lack of any such post in eight days I think it is safe to conclude that the Opecoiler has left the field. Concession accepted. Good day sir.