nBSG vs. Firefly

[Mr. Oragahn]

Ok, so yesterday I tried uploading a video to photobucket, but it didn't seem to work. But today when I checked my account, there it was. Odd, maybe they have to go through the video or something before they can allow it?

In any case, here it is.

Not bad at all.
Still slightly inferior, as per the lack of hot matter (there's only fragmentation in Firefly's case), and going by the size of the missile, this must be around 20-25 meters wide, on quick eyeball. But it could come very close to a viper missile.

That said, viper missiles can be somehow charged/dialed up/down, as seen by the attack on the Cylon facility on New Caprica.

As for fuel storage, the total energy which can be obtained if one burnt the whole fuel at once is not the same as the maximum power you can obtain from those reserves at a given time.

Battlestars must contain a lot. The Galactica was, after all, capable of going on for quite a while by working on its reserves alone, when it departed from the colonies in a haste.
Only their attack on the cylon mining station gave them an oportunity to recharge their stocks.
Tylium itself is very rare ("The o­nly tylium within 12 light-years").
However, that asteroid was "a mountain of tylium", "enough tylium to last us a couple years".

Tylium is some good stuff. I made calcs as well, and it came out as several kilotons per kg iirc.
Ah, here's the script's bit of interest.

Galactica - Projector Room
Tigh: This is our target.
Baltar: Cylon base.
Tigh: You're the Cylon expert. We need to destroy their military facilities.
Baltar: Without harming the tylium ore under the surface.
Tigh: Exactly.
Starbuck: A nuke would destroy the Cylons.
Baltar: But the radiation would render the ore inert. Unusable. I see your dilemma. Well, you're in luck, you know. Refined tylium contains tremendous enthalpy to the order of half a billion megajoules per kilo. If subjected to the right heat and compression, say, from a conventional warhead, you should get a suitably devastating explosion without the radioactive fallout. All we have to do is hit the right spot. Specifically, you need to hit the staging tanks for the refined tylium precursor. It's a lot more unstable than the fuel itself.
Starbuck: And where would they be?

500,000,000 MJ / kg.

Tilyum comes in various ways. We've seen it being used as liquid fuel for refueling vipers (probably a mix). It's in powder form when excavated.

In A Day in The Life, the Tyrls are stuck inside a depressurizing room. There's a boot which lets people monitor what's happening inside that room, through windows.
Other than that, it's totally isolated from said room, and only opening the blast doors opens a way through.

Galactica: CIC
Apollo: The airlock's designed to lock down if the pressure increases unexpectedly, so as soon as the patch...
Adama: -- I know the system. We have redundancies. We have...
Apollo: The manual override is down, there's no way of getting those inner doors to open. The thing must've taken heavy damage on the way out of New Caprica.
Tigh: Whole ship's take a pounding. We need six weeks in dry-dock just to hammer out the dings, let alone tackle the structural damage.
Adama: How much time do they have?
Apollo: With a leak that size, they'll be out of air in half an hour, maybe less. Those are blast doors. It would take at least an hour to cut through them.
Tigh: Why don't we put explosives in the observation booth? Blow the glass, pull them out.
Apollo: No, the glass is strong enough to withstand a tylium explosion. Anything strong enough to take out the glass will take out Tyrol and Cally at the same time.
Adama: I need a rescue plan. Not excuses.

[Trinoya]

Re-evaluation:
Alliance wins, but suffers enormous casualties...

This is a reasonable assessment, though I do not agree fully, I have no grounds to completely disagree with it either.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The opening of firefly proves the alliance has the fire power to dish it out any day of the week.

Like?

The alliance might have only one solar system, but they have HUNDREDS of colonies, battle star has 12. Only 12. Twelve habitable planets. JW described firefly as a universe with tons of planets and hundreds of moons within spitting distance of one another.

Well, doesn't mean much. If I didn't miss anything, all colonies in BSG75 had a military.

All in all, with out their FTL drives, the battle stars are going to find themselves a bit out matched here. Hit and run is out of the question entirely as the fastest acceleration we've seen in the series wasn't really that fast (Pegasus on her suicide run).

Though it drains Firefly's ships reactors, it's indeed going to be a problem. They can attack where they want, and it's not BSG's sensors which will prevent such an assault.

Now then, the battle stars will inflict heavy losses, of that there is no doubt. A battle star is worth every dollar spent... but they simply do not have the infrastructure required to survive. They have very limited resources and no way to replace lost pilots or crew, and the alliance can move A LOT faster now that FTL is out of the picture.

The Alliance could replace lost forces at what rate exactly?
We're talking about crews and spaceships.

All in all, you're looking at the alliance BLASTING the battle stars from as far away as possible... and considering they need to have a heavy enough presence to maintain the peace in the core, I'm certain they have the fleets to do it.

Some quantification would be required though.
They don't need huge fleets if the dissident and rogue groups they have to contain have even less ressources and firepower. Look at Serenity. I don't know if that ship is a good example, but it makes a poor battleship that any viper could take down with much ease.

Last and final factor... the alliance has technology at least on par with most of battle star. Nuclear weapons will be used, and they will be used often... and the alliance won't have to worry about running out any day soon. Shadow was, if I recall correctly, scorched and burned with its atmosphere removed. Nothing lives on shadow, nothing can. So we know it is within their power to obliterate an entire surface of a planet to the point it is uninhabitable.

Removing an atmosphere requires a shit lot of energy. We'd be ought to see traces of that firepower somewhere, if it existed.

Your basically taking 30 ships and saying, "go defeat this entire nation." It's just not going to happen. They don't have the man power, the fire power, or the logistics to take over even a moon... And I really doubt the brown coats (who were all about independence for every world) would like to be united under an alliance with a different name...

Now, add in FTL and a renewable fuel source and maybe you have a fight on your hands... maybe...

Do they need to control worlds?

[Trinoya]

Like

The obliterating of an entire battle ground from orbit? High velocity fighter craft? The entire battle of hera pretty much proves that they have combat capability.

Well, doesn't mean much. If I didn't miss anything, all colonies in BSG75 had a military.

Also unquantified and irrelevant, the topic specifically lists 20 Galactica and 10 Mercury class battle stars, no reinforcements or subsequent supplies.

Though it drains Firefly's ships reactors, it's indeed going to be a problem. They can attack where they want, and it's not BSG's sensors which will prevent such an assault.

Just a note here, a Firefly is not a battleship, it is an old freighter type that is notoriously weak. It's only advantage is speed + maneuverability.

The Alliance could replace lost forces at what rate exactly?
We're talking about crews and spaceships.

At a significantly faster rate than 114500 people with no reinforcements. In short, a higher rate, than no rate.

They don't need huge fleets if the dissident and rogue groups they have to contain have even less resources and firepower.

They had enough firepower to start and wage a civil war. Presumably the alliance had enough fire power to not just win said war, but then reclaim the munitions of the opposing side to prevent another war. After all this is supposed to parallel the American civil war.

Look at Serenity. I don't know if that ship is a good example, but it makes a poor battleship that any viper could take down with much ease.

Again, its a freighter and never meant for battle. It's like throwing colonial one into battle, with less armor, and less comfortable seats.

Removing an atmosphere requires a shit lot of energy. We'd be ought to see traces of that firepower somewhere, if it existed.

Except the show only lasted 14 episodes so we never get to see that firepower, however it is stated by Joss Whedon and confirmed by the RPG guide.

Do they need to control worlds?

They need to control them with at least enough force to prevent them from going back to war. This force, per the series, increases the closer you get to the core, where the alliance apparently can watch anyone at anytime... or some such.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The obliterating of an entire battle ground from orbit? High velocity fighter craft? The entire battle of hera pretty much proves that they have combat capability.

I haven't seen those, but I don't deny the existence of military stuff.
What matters is the level of that stuff.

Well, doesn't mean much. If I didn't miss anything, all colonies in BSG75 had a military.

Also unquantified and irrelevant, the topic specifically lists 20 Galactica and 10 Mercury class battle stars, no reinforcements or subsequent supplies.

You were the one stressing on the number of colonies, not me. There's still no proof that the vast number of those colonies have even anything close to a single warship able to rise against a BTS.

Though it drains Firefly's ships reactors, it's indeed going to be a problem. They can attack where they want, and it's not BSG's sensors which will prevent such an assault.

Just a note here, a Firefly is not a battleship, it is an old freighter type that is notoriously weak. It's only advantage is speed + maneuverability.

But as I got it, it's been able to avoid the Alliance rather well, and has been flying through a complete fleet, nevermind the distraction.

The Alliance could replace lost forces at what rate exactly?
We're talking about crews and spaceships.

At a significantly faster rate than 114500 people with no reinforcements. In short, a higher rate, than no rate.

Based on what?
Are you only talking about ground forces?
What about ships, which is what matters?

They don't need huge fleets if the dissident and rogue groups they have to contain have even less resources and firepower.

They had enough firepower to start and wage a civil war. Presumably the alliance had enough fire power to not just win said war, but then reclaim the munitions of the opposing side to prevent another war. After all this is supposed to parallel the American civil war.

Which doesn't say much. Super powerful forces could nullify each other just like low levels could.
The more low level, the more the control of worlds would matter, and make the task even harder, and in fact give maquises and other resistances chances to survive.

Look at Serenity. I don't know if that ship is a good example, but it makes a poor battleship that any viper could take down with much ease.

Again, its a freighter and never meant for battle. It's like throwing colonial one into battle, with less armor, and less comfortable seats.

No, what I see is that it's a freighter that's been surviving for a hell of a time, just because it is said to have superior manoeuverability in regards of other ships of the same tonnage, and when I look at what it can do on youtube, I don't see any thing that's faster than the toughest ships vipers and raptors have dealt with in the past.

Removing an atmosphere requires a shit lot of energy. We'd be ought to see traces of that firepower somewhere, if it existed.

Except the show only lasted 14 episodes so we never get to see that firepower, however it is stated by Joss Whedon and confirmed by the RPG guide.

Yeah well again, we don't know. If that firepower existed under the form of more or less standard weapons, there would be a definitive proof of that.
Doesn't that RPG guide provide more lines about the assault capabilities of warships?

Do they need to control worlds?

They need to control them with at least enough force to prevent them from going back to war. This force, per the series, increases the closer you get to the core, where the alliance apparently can watch anyone at anytime... or some such.

Which pretty much explains why the Alliance's power and influence are balanced.

From what I get, in fact, it's very possible that the BSG's Colonials would get a hand from the worlds they'd free from the Alliance.

[Trinoya]

What matters is the level of that stuff.

Easily comparable to modern day and Galactica level technology.

You were the one stressing on the number of colonies, not me. There's still no proof that the vast number of those colonies have even anything close to a single warship able to rise against a BTS.

Actually someone else had pointed out that, "Firefly was one solar system" I was simply pointing out that firefly, as it stood, had more planets than the twelve colonies in response to THAT point first.

ut as I got it, it's been able to avoid the Alliance rather well, and has been flying through a complete fleet, nevermind the distraction.

Per the series, the long arm of the alliance continued to force mal and company back further and further.

And with out said distraction in the movie, mal would have been blown out of the sky.

Based on what?
Are you only talking about ground forces?
What about ships, which is what matters?

Well, if any old non military, "I work for the higher ups" can pretty much go, "HEY YOU, get over here." And assemble a pretty large fleet, and every major alliance battleship carries gunboats on board... I'd say they have good ship production... and I'd declare it fact that they have better ship production than, oh, 30 ships away from home with the shirts on their back.

Which doesn't say much. Super powerful forces could nullify each other just like low levels could.
The more low level, the more the control of worlds would matter, and make the task even harder, and in fact give maquises and other resistances chances to survive.

There were no resistances. I guess that whole ability to, 'monitor your every move if they wanted' pretty much ended that. It was made pretty clear through out the series that if you were a threat to the alliance you were removed.

No, what I see is that it's a freighter that's been surviving for a hell of a time, just because it is said to have superior manoeuverability in regards of other ships of the same tonnage, and when I look at what it can do on youtube, I don't see any thing that's faster than the toughest ships vipers and raptors have dealt with in the past.

This freighter was held together with tape and gum and had one of the best pilots in the 'verse. It only out ran ships because those ships had worse pilots.

Yeah well again, we don't know. If that firepower existed under the form of more or less standard weapons, there would be a definitive proof of that.
Doesn't that RPG guide provide more lines about the assault capabilities of warships?

The guide says the following:

Alliance Patrol Boat: The work horse of the alliance enforcement arm, patrol boats can be encountered anywhere in the 'Verse. Patrol boats perform customs duty, search and rescue, anti-smuggling patrols, and maintain general control of the space lanes.

Eight 100 pound short range missiles. Ten 10 pound short range missiles, with decoy or jammer warheads. One 20 pound cannon. Two 1 pound autocannon.

This, other than fighter craft, is the smallest warship you can get. It has two decks and two shuttle bays as well. These are common on the large cityscape battleships as support craft.

Alliance Crusier:

After winning the war, the alliance moved quickly to consolidate its hold over the outer planets. The Tohoku class was conceived as a mobile base for pacification operations and a visible symbol of alliance power and prestige. In essence, each Tohoku is a self contained city in space, providing a platform for the alliance to bring the benefits of civilization to the backward worlds of the rim.

As a note: It says that to list all the 'weapons' would be pointless, though the ship appears to be lacking in armor due to its size, though it has access to pretty much any defensive weapon in massive quantities and would utilize smaller support craft (fighters, patrol boats, destroyers, carriers, etc) in their defense. These are the fleet command ships. And here is a picture.

http://still-flying.net/images/serenity ... ity095.jpg

Which pretty much explains why the Alliance's power and influence are balanced.

From what I get, in fact, it's very possible that the BSG's Colonials would get a hand from the worlds they'd free from the Alliance.

Also incorrect. The alliance is the only thing protecting these rims from the reavers, pirates, and crime that is already rampet. In addition to this, each planet in the rim did not want to make a unified nation, they wanted to all be equally independent.

Now in order to 'liberate them' and 'convience them' the battle stars will have to do a lot of ground work... guess what they just don't have the resources to do...

Ooops.

Let me put this in a better perspective:

You just basically took the 2nd fleet (the atlantic fleet) of the USA and said, "go take down the UN.

Hell, lets assume a technological difference and armor difference so we'll say... you transport it to the year 1960 and then go, "Go take down the UN."

The 2nd fleet looses.

Miserably.

In a matter of weeks.

Dead.

Hell, you could throw that same fleet back to the year 1850... guess what, DEAD. It does not have the logistical support required to wage war and WIN. And since they can't just do a scorched earth policy (they are trying to take down the alliance, not destroy innocent civilians, especially lost 13th colony civilians) I'm pretty sure they wont be nuking populations either since all that accomplishes is they die a wee bit faster.