Warp Speeds List

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Lucky
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:29 am

Praeothmin wrote: I hate using only the highest values as a capability instead of the outlier they are because of the VOY example I used, in the case of Warp speeds...

If Federation ships were capable of 14 million c, then VOY's trip home could have been done in 9.67 hours...
Since most Fed ships can use their engines at Max for close to 12 hours, then the trip home would have been a cake walk...
Even if the transit and lack of accurate star charts would have forced VOY ten times slower, then 96 hours would have been necessary to go home...
If a thousand times slower, then 9672 hours, or 403 days would have been necessary...
A far cry from the 70 years they estimated...
You do realize that you are doing exactly what you claim to be trying to avoid doing?

Voyager's trip is the big outlier
Voyager Season: 1 Episode: 1 Caretaker wrote: [Engineering]

(Janeway pins her hair back up and enters. Something goes bang.) 


COMPUTER: Warning. Warp core microfracture. Breach imminent.


JANEWAY: What's the warp core pressure?


CAREY: Twenty one hundred kilopascals.


JANEWAY: Lock down the magnetic constrictors.


CAREY: If we lock them down at these pressure levels, we might not be able to reinitialise the dilithium reaction.


COMPUTER: Warning. Warp core microfracture. Breach imminent.


JANEWAY: We don't have a choice. We've got to get the reaction rate down before we try to seal it.
If the warp core was in such bad shape what else could have been wrong with the ship, just about anything, and no where to make proper repairs and no time to make proper repairs.

From the first episode Voyager was badly damaged with no way to make proper repairs, and to make matters worse, it was never fully supplied or crewed to begin with. Voyager was designed to have an Aeroshuttle, but left port without it. Voyager was outfitted for the proverbial three hour tour.
Using Voyager for anything other then low ends is kind of dishonest. Ships in proper working order should be able to do anything Voyager could do, but better.

Let's look at a ship in proper working order, is fully crewed, and fully supplied.
Star Tre: The Next Generation Season: 1 Episode: 6 Where No man Has Gone Before wrote: PICARD: Position, Mister La Forge. 


LAFORGE: Well, sir, according to these calculations, we've not only left our own galaxy, but passed through two others, ending up on the far side of Triangulum. The galaxy known as M Thirty Three. 


PICARD: That's not possible. Data, what distance have we travelled? 


DATA: Two million seven hundred thousand light years. 


PICARD: I can't accept that. 


DATA: You must, sir. Our comparisons show it to be completely accurate. 


LAFORGE: And I calculate that at maximum warp, sir it would take over three hundred years to get home.
I'll use 300 years because Laforge was clearly rounding to the nearest hundred, and Laforge is not known for padding his estimates.

2,700,000/300=9000c average

An early model Galaxy Class is almost ten times faster then Voyager which was seemingly made for speed and agility. You see a problem with using Voyager as the standard, right?

Why does everyone focus on Voyager rather then Star Trek: The Next Generation? Because that would be the honest thing to do.
Praeothmin wrote: I think it's Robert who, on his website (or is it Mike D here?), talks about how Captain Ransom, using only a different fuel type, was able to get his small, Science ship to go up over 250 000c...
I believe that fuel was magical extra dimensional life forms who hunted him down, and killed his crew in horrible manners for using them as fuel. It's a bad idea to use it.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 2046 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:19 am

Voyager's figure is used since the whole plot revolves around it and it is said multiple times, but you make an excellent point inasmuch as the E-D estimate being 10x greater.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:33 am

2046 wrote:Voyager's figure is used since the whole plot revolves around it and it is said multiple times, but you make an excellent point inasmuch as the E-D estimate being 10x greater.
That is over simplifying the plot of Voyager though.

You have to include that Voyager is a story about an understaffed, under supplied, and badly damaged ship far from home. The warp-core and ship in general was badly damaged in the first episode, and as far as I can recall, Voyager never gets put into a dry-dock to be fixed until it returns to Federation space.

People always forget that Voyager nearly blew-up when it was dragged across the galaxy, and act as if the ship was fixed good as new after every battle.

The fact that the 1,000c speed keeps getting repeated just proves Voyager was never operating at 100%.

Voyager isn't many examples, but a single giant example.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by sonofccn » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:13 pm

Lucky wrote:Why does everyone focus on Voyager rather then Star Trek: The Next Generation? Because that would be the honest thing to do.
Well Voyager raises certain issues of travel as rather centric to its nature, as does DS9, which we do have to try and explain rather than just sweep under the rug. Now both are more complex "under the hood" so to speak and are not as cut and dry as an outsider might first assume but there is no evidence to jettison an entire series, even Voyager, as an outlier.

Further TNG has issues of its own. Such as from the Price, season 3, :
Ready room]

DATA: The data from the Barzan's probe of the wormhole are quite impressive, Captain. The wormhole delivered the probe beyond the Denkiri Arm, in the Gamma Quadrant.
PICARD: It would take nearly a century at warp nine to cover that distance.
DATA: Curious. We are not where we are supposed to be.
LAFORGE: What do you mean? We're on the other side of the wormhole, aren't we ?
DATA: According to the Barzan probe, we should be in the Gamma Quadrant but these readings clearly indicate we are nearly two hundred light years away in sector three five five six of the Delta Quadrant.
[Shuttlepod]

LAFORGE: I can see it now and I'm telling you that you don't have time to wait. Not even forty seconds.
ARRIDOR [OC]: Ferengi pod out.
LAFORGE: Damn it, Arridor, we're seventy thousand light years away from our ships. Come on, now. Follow us in. We'll lead you.
(no reply)
LAFORGE: Idiots. It's getting worse. I'm taking us in, Data. With or without them.
DATA: Thrusters at half power. Three quarters.
LAFORGE: Entering outer event horizon.

[Ferengi pod]

ARRIDOR: They panic quickly under pressure. There, precisely as scheduled. Right where I expected it to be.
(Then the end of the wormhole whizzes away from them)
WORF: Captain, DaiMon Goss is demanding to know where his men are.
PICARD: Advise him to set his coordinates for the Delta Quadrant. He may run into them in eighty years or so.
Or aproximately 875c for a Ferengi vessel, perhaps even longer for the Enterprise.

Then we have where silence has lease, 2nd season,:
RIKER: Might we have moved into another dimension?
DATA: Could a lack of dimension be another dimension in itself?
PULASKI: That's an interesting question.
PICARD: For a later discussion. Number One, I think we should get on with our mission. Starfleet can send a science vessel back to investigate further. Move us back out of here.
RIKER: Aye, sir. Wesley, reverse our direction, set a course for the Cornelian star system. Impulse power.
WESLEY: Aye, sir. Reversing direction. Course laid in.
RIKER: Engage.
(We see the Enterprise whizz off, but nothing changes on the viewscreen)
RIKER: Your engines have engaged, haven't they, Ensign?
WESLEY: Aye, sir.

[Engineering]

PICARD [OC]: Lieutenant La Forge, I'd like you to monitor our velocity closely. LAFORGE: Is everything all right up there, Captain?
PICARD [OC]: Are the engines operating normally?
LAFORGE: Yes, sir. Everything looks fine down here.
PICARD [OC]: We're increasing to warp two.
LAFORGE: Aye, sir.

[Bridge]

PICARD: We should be seeing stars by now. Data, how far have we come?
DATA: Inertial guidance shows one point four parsecs travelled, Captain.
PICARD: Ensign?
WESLEY: Confirmed, sir. Exactly what my readings say.
Which even if we assume the above took five minutes, a gross over estimation, is still over four hundred thousand c for no better than warp 2.

Then we have Q who, 2nd season,:
[Bridge]

DATA: According to these coordinates, we have travelled seven thousand light years

[Ten Forward]

DATA [OC]: And are located near the system J two five.
RIKER: Travel time to the nearest starbase?
DATA [OC]: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five.
For a little under 3000c at maximum warp.

For the record I am not claiming any over the above should be used as the Gold standard merely that it isn't a matter of ignoring or overlooking a particular series but rather that warp speeds can vary substationally between episodes. And we're all just trying to put the pieces into some logical, sensical order.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:40 pm

Lucky wrote:Voyager's trip is the big outlier
Actually, it's an outlier that lasted 7 seasons, so no, it's not an outlier, and sonofccn has shown many other such examples...
If the warp core was in such bad shape what else could have been wrong with the ship, just about anything, and no where to make proper repairs and no time to make proper repairs.

From the first episode Voyager was badly damaged with no way to make proper repairs, and to make matters worse, it was never fully supplied or crewed to begin with. Voyager was designed to have an Aeroshuttle, but left port without it. Voyager was outfitted for the proverbial three hour tour.
Using Voyager for anything other then low ends is kind of dishonest. Ships in proper working order should be able to do anything Voyager could do, but better.
You mean the ship that was in pristine condition at the start of almost every episode?
The ship that was able to manufacture a completely new ships from scratch... Twice?
The ship that fired more torpedoes, that lost more shuttles, than it originally had when it arrived in the Delta Quadrant?
The ship that was able to fly at Warp 9.9 at least once, and flew at "Maximum Warp" many times?
That ship?

See, I already said I agreed that VOY had many causes for such a long travel time, and that I agreed with them, but if Warp 9.975 was 14 million c, a ship capable of doing Warp 9.9 should have gone home in a few days at most...
An early model Galaxy Class is almost ten times faster then Voyager which was seemingly made for speed and agility. You see a problem with using Voyager as the standard, right?
Galaxy-Class ship with greater industrial capacity, greater energy storage, and fully stocked...
Apples and Oranges...
And guess what?
9000c is still nowhere near 14 million c...
I believe that fuel was magical extra dimensional life forms who hunted him down, and killed his crew in horrible manners for using them as fuel. It's a bad idea to use it.
I mentioned this only to state that with more efficient power sources, higher Warp Speeds apparently can be sustained for far longer...
I wasn't commenting on whether VOY should have used them or not... :)


Though if they had, they might have been able to sustain Warp 9.975 for a long time...

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:27 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
2046 wrote:Personally, my goal is to develop a "happy median" value for assorted warp factors, and the more trustworthy examples we have, the better those values will be.
Agreed!
Agreed as well.

Praeothmin wrote:
Lucky wrote:Voyager's trip is the big outlier
Actually, it's an outlier that lasted 7 seasons, so no, it's not an outlier, and sonofccn has shown many other such examples...
Voyager, while far from the mean for warp 9.whatever is definitely not an outlier. If you look at the simply charts I made on page two of this thread, in the first chart between warp 6 to 10 and 0c to 2000c there is a block of eight points (the chart is old, so there will be one or two that should be in that range sense then). The point for voyager is somewhere in there, anyway, because there is a grouping of points around it, the voyager example can not be considered an outlier.

Also it does not really matter if it is or not, one seldom entirely discards outliers. Especially in cases such as this where the data is self-contradictory by the nature through which it was created (i.e. being derived from a TV show).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier


-----------
Inspired by a quick look-through of the aforementioned Star Trek Dimension website

DS9: "Way of the Warrior":

Kasidy: "My brother says if you're ever on Cestus Three, he'll get you seats in the dugout."
Sisko: "How far is Cestus Three?"
Kasidy: "Eight weeks at maximum warp."
Sisko: "To see a real baseball game, it might be worth the trip."
Kasidy: "If you ever decide to go, I'll take you there myself. As long as you don't mind travelling by freighter."


DS9: "Family Business":

Kasidy: "It's not what you think. It's kind of a family obligation. You see, my youngest brother, he's a colonist on Cestus Three."
Sisko: "That's on the other side of the Federation."



We are given the information that Cestus III is on the opposite side of the Federation from DS9. The Federation is 8000 ly across as of First Contact, but given the casual nature of the statement the distance could probably be between 8,000 and 4,000 light-years. The duration of the trip is said to be 8 weeks as "maximum warp". This results in speeds between 52,185c and 26,093c.

Given that Kasidy then offers to take Sisko to Cestus III at some point, the mention of "maximum warp" probably refers to the maximum warp of her freighter. I would make sense that her freighter cannot reach high warp, and as discussed earlier this is somewhere between warp five and warp eight.

Warp: Maximum, probably 5 to 8?; Time: 8 weeks; Distance: 4,000 ly to 8,000 ly

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by sonofccn » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:06 pm

Praeothmin wrote:and sonofccn has shown many other such examples...
Well two examples of "Voyager like" speed. I really just wanted to show the speed variance you find in TNG.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:25 pm

Ok, let me reiterate:
I take VOY at face value and accept the speeds it displayed, because I AGREE that VOY was not going at maximum Warp, and that in fact most of the time we hear Warp 6 being mentioned (and we will never, ever mention Warp 10 for fear the mere mention of that load of crap will de-evolve us in slugs)...

I DO NOT AGREE that ST ships can reach 14 million c, and treat THAT value as an outlier...

I think it's been mentioned a shitload of times on this site, but Warp "highways", where a well traveled path with very precise astronomic charts help ships attain high thousands, and in some cases very low million of c in known territory, is one I believe in...
VOY has shown us canonically that better navigation data yields shorter trips, or sometimes faster trips, so again, I DO NOT BELIEVE VOY is an outlier, and accept the explanations as to why it was going so slow, and accept the average speeds it showed us as being mid-Warp speeds, and not high-Warp speeds...

I hope I won't have to repeat myself again... ;)

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:26 am

359 wrote: Voyager, while far from the mean for warp 9.whatever is definitely not an outlier. If you look at the simply charts I made on page two of this thread, in the first chart between warp 6 to 10 and 0c to 2000c there is a block of eight points (the chart is old, so there will be one or two that should be in that range sense then). The point for voyager is somewhere in there, anyway, because there is a grouping of points around it, the voyager example can not be considered an outlier.

Also it does not really matter if it is or not, one seldom entirely discards outliers. Especially in cases such as this where the data is self-contradictory by the nature through which it was created (i.e. being derived from a TV show).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier
You never use a damaged jury-rigged device as the standard by which you judge the properly working version. If someone wants to use Voyager as the standard, then that person needs to prove Voyager was working at 100%, but I don't recall anything in Voyager being done to show that the ship was doing anything other then limping home slowly.

Your charts are confusing. Why did you make three charts with three different scales instead of one chart, or make a different chart for each series?

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Lucky » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:27 am

Praeothmin wrote: Actually, it's an outlier that lasted 7 seasons, so no, it's not an outlier, and sonofccn has shown many other such examples...
It is a single example that is repeatedly contradicted. If an accurate representation then Deep Space Nine can't have happened.
Deep Space Nine Season: 7 Episode: 16 Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges wrote: KIRA: All right, that's it for today then. Same time next week? Oh sorry, Senator, you'll be attending that conference on Romulus, won't you? 


CRETAK: Yes. But SubCommander Velal will be here in my place. 


KIRA: Fine. Have a safe trip. 


CRETAK: Thank you.
Here we have an Intrepid Class able to go from Romulus to Deep Space: 9 to Romulus and back in a week. That far exceeds Voyager's 1000c unless Romulus is less then 10 light-years from Deep Space Nine.
Deep Space nine Season: 6 Episode: 22 Valiant wrote: COLLINS: The training cruise was supposed to last three months. We had seven regular officers and a crew of thirty five cadets. The plan was for the cadets to run the ship while the officers observed and critiqued our performance. 


JAKE: So this was a training ship. Like the other one, the, er, the Republic. 


COLLINS: Not quite. The Republic's an old ship. I don't think she's left the Terran system in fifty years. The Valiant's a state of the art warship. Our mission was to circumnavigate the entire Federation before returning home. 


JAKE: The entire Federation? With a ship of cadets? 


COLLINS: Not just cadets, Mister Sisko.
The Federation is 8,000 light-years long. The Valiant was suppose to travel an excess of 16,000 light-years in 3 months.
Praeothmin wrote: You mean the ship that was in pristine condition at the start of almost every episode?
Just because there are no visible holes in the ship's hull does not make the ship in proper working order. You'll need to prove the internal were ever back to 100% during the series.

Praeothmin wrote: The ship that was able to manufacture a completely new ships from scratch... Twice?
That doesn't prove Voyager had the resources to fix itself.

Praeothmin wrote: The ship that fired more torpedoes, that lost more shuttles, than it originally had when it arrived in the Delta Quadrant?
That doesn't prove Voyager had the resources to fix itself.

Praeothmin wrote: The ship that was able to fly at Warp 9.9 at least once, and flew at "Maximum Warp" many times?
That ship?
Still doesn't show that Voyager was anywhere near 100% at any time during its trip home.

Praeothmin wrote: See, I already said I agreed that VOY had many causes for such a long travel time, and that I agreed with them, but if Warp 9.975 was 14 million c, a ship capable of doing Warp 9.9 should have gone home in a few days at most...
Clearly with the proper navigational data a Federation style warp drive can reach millions of c. You want to throw out everything else for an outlier. In order for hundreds or even low thousands of c to be the standard for warp you must ignores entire seasons of TOS, TNG, DS9, Enterprise, and it would take years to get from one end of the Federation to the other.

We know that things like black-holes effect warp travel beyond it being best for the ship to go around them.

Praeothmin wrote: Galaxy-Class ship with greater industrial capacity, greater energy storage, and fully stocked...
Apples and Oranges...
And guess what?
9000c is still nowhere near 14 million c...
LOL,
The Enterprise-D wasn't even in the Milky Way anymore. Its trip would have been worse then Voyager's do to being even farther from home, and long treks with no way to resupply. Most of the trip, the E-D would be unable to resupply at all.

It doesn't matter if the E-D expected to travel at a million c or not. It is still about 10 times as fast as what Voyager was able to do. Voyager's trip is an outlier because it was damaged, and never fixed.

We know maps matter when it comes to speed. A few million c in one case is not over ruled by a few thousand c in another case. ruled

Praeothmin wrote: I mentioned this only to state that with more efficient power sources, higher Warp Speeds apparently can be sustained for far longer...
I wasn't commenting on whether VOY should have used them or not... :)


Though if they had, they might have been able to sustain Warp 9.975 for a long time...
Equinox wrote: JANEWAY: The alien compound. Ten isograms. If I understand your calculations, that's enough to increase your warp factor by what, point zero three percent for one month? Unfortunately, that boost wouldn't get you very far, so you'd need to replenish the supply and that means killing another lifeform, and then another. How many lives would it take to get you back to the Alpha quadrant? I think you know the reason we're under attack. These aliens are trying to protect themselves from you.

_-_-_-_-_-_

RANSOM: We examined the remains and discovered it could be converted to enhance our propulsion systems. It was already dead. What would you have done? We travelled over ten thousand light years in less than two weeks. We'd found our salvation. How could we ignore it?
In other words, the aliens didn't do much of anything when compared to Star Fleet standard, and were magic make warp drive better things.

As I have stated, Voyager is a the outlier that demands we throw out all of TOS, TNG, DS9, and even Enterprise from happening.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Picard » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:13 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Ok, let me reiterate:
I take VOY at face value and accept the speeds it displayed, because I AGREE that VOY was not going at maximum Warp, and that in fact most of the time we hear Warp 6 being mentioned (and we will never, ever mention Warp 10 for fear the mere mention of that load of crap will de-evolve us in slugs)...

I DO NOT AGREE that ST ships can reach 14 million c, and treat THAT value as an outlier...

I think it's been mentioned a shitload of times on this site, but Warp "highways", where a well traveled path with very precise astronomic charts help ships attain high thousands, and in some cases very low million of c in known territory, is one I believe in...
VOY has shown us canonically that better navigation data yields shorter trips, or sometimes faster trips, so again, I DO NOT BELIEVE VOY is an outlier, and accept the explanations as to why it was going so slow, and accept the average speeds it showed us as being mid-Warp speeds, and not high-Warp speeds...

I hope I won't have to repeat myself again... ;)
Agreed. My personal theory is, warp drive is a gravitational drive. Thus large mass concentrations (like stars etc) can influence its performance. In area where these mass concentrations are well known, starships can use them to increase speed beyond what they could reach in empty space. But in areas where these concentrations are not well known, their speed is limited by how far ahead can their sensors see. Thus, even though Intrepid may be faster than Galaxy class in known space, Galaxy is likely faster in unexplored space.

Further, there is question of fuel. We know that starships, when in galaxy, can use gas to refuel. But Enterprise D was outside the galaxy, so it had no such luxury. Thus 9 000 c is not its maximum speed, just maximum speed that could have been sustained for required amount of time.

(EDIT: That is like fighter aircraft afterburners. While many fighters can reach speeds of Mach 2 or above, it is only possible with use of afterburners, which massively increase fuel consumption. Without afterburners, speed limit is generally Mach 1 - Mach 1,5)

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:02 am

Lucky wrote:
359 wrote:Voyager, while far from the mean for warp 9.whatever is definitely not an outlier. If you look at the simply charts I made on page two of this thread, in the first chart between warp 6 to 10 and 0c to 2000c there is a block of eight points (the chart is old, so there will be one or two that should be in that range sense then). The point for voyager is somewhere in there, anyway, because there is a grouping of points around it, the voyager example can not be considered an outlier.

Also it does not really matter if it is or not, one seldom entirely discards outliers. Especially in cases such as this where the data is self-contradictory by the nature through which it was created (i.e. being derived from a TV show).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier
You never use a damaged jury-rigged device as the standard by which you judge the properly working version. If someone wants to use Voyager as the standard, then that person needs to prove Voyager was working at 100%, but I don't recall anything in Voyager being done to show that the ship was doing anything other then limping home slowly.
I am not suggesting using Voyager as a standard:
359 wrote:One thing that irks me is how people keep using the "But! But Voyager..." argument as to why nothing else could be correct. To be sure it is an important value as it is referenced multiple times, and others back it up. But that does not mean that other evidence cannot be entered into consideration.
All I am saying is it is not an outlier to be discounted all together. Sure it is not the mean, but it is still there, it is still canon, so it still can not be dismissed as nothing. It should be counted, alongside all of the other evidence, into a kind of "best-fit" for warp speeds as a whole.

As for Voyager never being able to reach max warp, they could and did on several occasions. Although their ability to do so was probably limited in duration. And as people have pointed out many times we have seen that the majority of the time Voyager is cruising home at warp six (when they aren't doing anything else), which they are fully capable of doing.

Lucky wrote:Your charts are confusing. Why did you make three charts with three different scales instead of one chart, or make a different chart for each series?
I'm sorry you find them to be confusing. They are charting warp factor vs velocity c for three different scales so that you can more easily distinguish points that are close together. For example on the first chart, you can see the higher values, but the different lower ones are indistinguishable. And on the last chart you can distinguish each value, but the higher ones are not displayed.

Lucky wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:Actually, it's an outlier that lasted 7 seasons, so no, it's not an outlier, and sonofccn has shown many other such examples...
It is a single example that is repeatedly contradicted. If an accurate representation then Deep Space Nine can't have happened.
Every example has been repeatedly contradicted by every other example because very few of them work with each other, they're all over the place. Many things contradict the DS9 examples, many things contradict the TNG examples, and many things contradict the VOY examples. That is why you collect them all into one place, to determine from this mess what is reasonable given all of the evidence.

Lucky wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:The ship that was able to manufacture a completely new ships from scratch... Twice?
That doesn't prove Voyager had the resources to fix itself.
Actually being able to construct two or more warp driven ships using Federation technology means that they have the ability and resources to construct and repair at least equal amounts of their own ship. And they can do this on quite a large scale, such as when they were completely replacing several of their large warp coils in VOY:"Nightingale"Image

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:42 am

Let's add some context to that pretty picture there, 359:


Captain's Log, Stardate 54274.7. Lieutenant Torres has finally convinced me that I can't put off a major maintenance overhaul any longer. We've set down on an uninhabited planet, and I've sent shuttles to search for supplies.

[Engineering]

JANEWAY: What about the impulse upgrades?

TORRES: The day after tomorrow. Put a new phase compensator on that relay.

JANEWAY: Environmental control?

TORRES: The thermal regulators are still running a little hot.

JANEWAY: Too bad we can't just keep our windows open. How long until the warp drive is back online?

TORRES: Six days.

JANEWAY: You're sure you can't get it done any faster?

TORRES: Captain, I don't like sitting still any more than you do, but repairs this extensive take time. (lights go out) Mendez, track down that power drain.

MENDEZ: Right away.

JANEWAY: I know this ship has been through a lot, but you told me this would only take a few days.

TORRES: That was before I discovered the micro-fractures in the starboard nacelle and the fused relays in the main computer. (lights come back on) Who did that?

ICHEB: I noticed a charge imbalance in the EPS feed. I'm sorry if I

TORRES: It could have taken us hours to find that.

ICHEB: I have a tactical systems report for you. It's from Commander Tuvok.

TORRES: I'd say you're capable of a lot more than delivering PADDs, Icheb.

JANEWAY: I agree. Until we get underway again, he's assigned to you. With him on your team, maybe you'll get this job done a little faster.


There is nothing in the episode that indicates that this "major overhaul" requires them them to completely replace warp coils, or other major systems. Also, the two ships they built on their own were small Delta Flyer shuttles. While impressive little craft, they are not comparable in any way to a 700,000 metric ton starship. It's like saying that because you built a 7 meter long fishing boat, you are now able to build a full up Nimitz-class aircraft carrier, or the Queen Mary 2.
-Mike

359
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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by 359 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:19 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:There is nothing in the episode that indicates that this "major overhaul" requires them them to completely replace warp coils, or other major systems. Also, the two ships they built on their own were small Delta Flyer shuttles. While impressive little craft, they are not comparable in any way to a 700,000 metric ton starship. It's like saying that because you built a 7 meter long fishing boat, you are now able to build a full up Nimitz-class aircraft carrier, or the Queen Mary 2.
You are correct they did not state they replaced the coils, I did not look up the spcifics on the matinance. I did not intend to imply that they possessed all of the material on board for such an overhaul, they often discuss utilizing materials they find on planets to effect repairs, I was intending to point out that they have the equipment necessary to do so, and at least enough material on hand to completely construct several new vessels. This means they have the equipment and resources to repair most damage they suffer. Especially since they are expending resources in the construction and maintenance of extra craft. They rarely need to totally replace large components, as I recall the greatest threat in terms of loss was the bio-neural gel system.

And on several occasions they have taken substantial hull damage during the various battles, which they were able to repair. One instance that comes to mind is VOY: "Maneuvers" in which a Kazon shuttle rams through Voyager's hull.

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Re: Warp Speeds List

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Yeah, all the time Voyager was capable of repairing visible hull damage to pristine condition tends to indicate they can perform extensive repairs rather well...
Of course, replacing armored bulkheads and walls will be simpler than replacing Warp Coils, just like replacing a fender on a car is easier than replacing a damaged piston in the engine...
Still, they were capable of creating two brand new Warp Cores (more if you count all the shuttles they replaced), so repairing a big one should just take time, and not be beyond their capabilities...
Lucky wrote:
Deep Space Nine Season: 7 Episode: 16 Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges wrote::
KIRA: All right, that's it for today then. Same time next week? Oh sorry, Senator, you'll be attending that conference on Romulus, won't you? 


CRETAK: Yes. But SubCommander Velal will be here in my place. 


KIRA: Fine. Have a safe trip. 


CRETAK: Thank you.
Here we have an Intrepid Class able to go from Romulus to Deep Space: 9 to Romulus and back in a week. That far exceeds Voyager's 1000c unless Romulus is less then 10 light-years from Deep Space Nine.
Hhhmm, no!
That very passage states the Senator WILL NOT be at DS9 the next week because he will be at Romulus, and thus is the reason Sub-Commander Vela will replace him...
So no, it appears transport ships cannot make a DS9 - Romulus round trip in 7 days...

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