Warp Speeds List

[Mike DiCenso]

Yeah, all the time Voyager was capable of repairing visible hull damage to pristine condition tends to indicate they can perform extensive repairs rather well...

Really? A few square meters of damage = "extensive repairs"? Since when? And explain, if you can, why Voyager was trashed so badly and stayed that way during the events of "Year of Hell, parts 1 and 2"?

Hhhmm, no!
That very passage states the Senator WILL NOT be at DS9 the next week because he will be at Romulus, and thus is the reason Sub-Commander Vela will replace him...
So no, it appears transport ships cannot make a DS9 - Romulus round trip in 7 days...

Senator Creetak is a she, not a he. Also, the events place the one-way trip to Romulus as less than a week (next Thursday), so six days or less. As has already been discussed, in this thread and elsewhere, the distance from Bajor to Romulus is no less than 200 light years, which means speeds in excess of 12,000c, which is 12 times faster than Voyager's. Given the "Hands of the Prophets" canon map relationships and the 8,000 light year statement from ST:FC, that number really goes up to 486,667c.
-Mike

[mojo]

Voyager, while far from the mean for warp 9.whatever is definitely not an outlier. If you look at the simply charts I made on page two of this thread, in the first chart between warp 6 to 10 and 0c to 2000c there is a block of eight points (the chart is old, so there will be one or two that should be in that range sense then). The point for voyager is somewhere in there, anyway, because there is a grouping of points around it, the voyager example can not be considered an outlier.

Also it does not really matter if it is or not, one seldom entirely discards outliers. Especially in cases such as this where the data is self-contradictory by the nature through which it was created (i.e. being derived from a TV show).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier

You never use a damaged jury-rigged device as the standard by which you judge the properly working version. If someone wants to use Voyager as the standard, then that person needs to prove Voyager was working at 100%, but I don't recall anything in Voyager being done to show that the ship was doing anything other then limping home slowly.

I am not suggesting using Voyager as a standard:

One thing that irks me is how people keep using the "But! But Voyager..." argument as to why nothing else could be correct. To be sure it is an important value as it is referenced multiple times, and others back it up. But that does not mean that other evidence cannot be entered into consideration.

All I am saying is it is not an outlier to be discounted all together. Sure it is not the mean, but it is still there, it is still canon, so it still can not be dismissed as nothing. It should be counted, alongside all of the other evidence, into a kind of "best-fit" for warp speeds as a whole.

As for Voyager never being able to reach max warp, they could and did on several occasions. Although their ability to do so was probably limited in duration. And as people have pointed out many times we have seen that the majority of the time Voyager is cruising home at warp six (when they aren't doing anything else), which they are fully capable of doing.

Your charts are confusing. Why did you make three charts with three different scales instead of one chart, or make a different chart for each series?

I'm sorry you find them to be confusing. They are charting warp factor vs velocity c for three different scales so that you can more easily distinguish points that are close together. For example on the first chart, you can see the higher values, but the different lower ones are indistinguishable. And on the last chart you can distinguish each value, but the higher ones are not displayed.

Actually, it's an outlier that lasted 7 seasons, so no, it's not an outlier, and sonofccn has shown many other such examples...

It is a single example that is repeatedly contradicted. If an accurate representation then Deep Space Nine can't have happened.

Every example has been repeatedly contradicted by every other example because very few of them work with each other, they're all over the place. Many things contradict the DS9 examples, many things contradict the TNG examples, and many things contradict the VOY examples. That is why you collect them all into one place, to determine from this mess what is reasonable given all of the evidence.

The ship that was able to manufacture a completely new ships from scratch... Twice?

That doesn't prove Voyager had the resources to fix itself.

Actually being able to construct two or more warp driven ships using Federation technology means that they have the ability and resources to construct and repair at least equal amounts of their own ship. And they can do this on quite a large scale, such as when they were completely replacing several of their large warp coils in VOY:"Nightingale"

that looks like a damn ps2 game.

[Praeothmin]

Really? A few square meters of damage = "extensive repairs"? Since when? And explain, if you can, why Voyager was trashed so badly and stayed that way during the events of "Year of Hell, parts 1 and 2"?

I'll explain as soon as you explain why, for the rest of the damn series, Voyager bore no mark from its repeated encounters and battles?
Year of Hell was an outlier, because everything was in pristine condition before, and after that episode aired...
And really, Mike, losing 10 shuttles outright, but still being able to churn out an repair a handful of others, and repair the damage to Voyager's hull, in addition to making more Torpedoes and creating not one, but TWO different Delta-Flyers, doesn't indicate capabilities for extensive repairs?

Senator Creetak is a she, not a he. Also, the events place the one-way trip to Romulus as less than a week (next Thursday), so six days or less. As has already been discussed, in this thread and elsewhere, the distance from Bajor to Romulus is no less than 200 light years, which means speeds in excess of 12,000c, which is 12 times faster than Voyager's. Given the "Hands of the Prophets" canon map relationships and the 8,000 light year statement from ST:FC, that number really goes up to 486,667c.
-Mike

Well, from DS Earth seems to be at least 200 LY from Bajor, and we know Romulus is on the other side of the Federation from Bajor, and the border is at least 130-150 LY from Earth, so I'd say Bajor to Romulus is at the very least 350 Ly distant from Bajor...
But I wasn't disputing the speed or distance, just that that distance could be performed in a two-way trip within a week...

[2046]

Things never let up in "Year of Hell", hence the name. That suggests more about repair time than ability.

[Mike DiCenso]

I'll explain as soon as you explain why, for the rest of the damn series, Voyager bore no mark from its repeated encounters and battles?
Year of Hell was an outlier, because everything was in pristine condition before, and after that episode aired...

But the point being is that Voyager was under almost constant attack during that time and even when they were not, they were still not able to magically fix up the huge chunks of damage the ship suffered, probably because it was beyond their ability to do so without a space dock. Most of the other damage you describe is a few holes maybe a few square meters total, like the hole made by the Kazon boarding ram ship.

And really, Mike, losing 10 shuttles outright, but still being able to churn out an repair a handful of others, and repair the damage to Voyager's hull, in addition to making more Torpedoes and creating not one, but TWO different Delta-Flyers, doesn't indicate capabilities for extensive repairs?

As I made the analogy to 359, the ability to build a small craft does not automatically confer the ability to build a vessel many orders of magnitude larger and probably more complex. Also, how many shuttlecraft does an Intrepid-class starship have in the first place? Remember the volume of an Intrepid has is comparable to a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier or a good-sized oil tanker. There's plenty of room on board for shuttles, and more importantly, for lots of spare parts to assemble or repair them. No need for major manufacturing facilities. The only thing that gives credence to them having manufacturing facilities is the construction of the Delta Flyers, though we have no idea if the warp coils and such for those ships were possibly constructed using spares intended for the other shuttles.

But even still, that does not mean that Voyager has the ability to do major rebuild if it is severely damaged (e.g. rebuild from scratch an entire warp nacelle that got blown up.), not just simply patch up some hull plates or broken seams, or the typical microfracture they suffer, etc.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

As I remember, Voyager had its warp coils burned up in "Investigations" by being forced to vent superheated drive plasma as part of a ploy to lure the ship to a world so that the Kazon could seize it. Michael Jonas was colluding with Seska. The coils are made with verterium cortenide, which they evidently can't replicate since they needed to secure a new source for it. Remember the ship was originally outfitted and provisioned for a short voyage into the Badlands. Replacing shuttles is probably fairly commonplace, since the ships tend to go through them even within Federation space. Since runabouts inexplicably have their own NCC numbers, Starfleet is content to send new one every time Sisko trashed one, for example. As far as shuttles go, Starfleet vessels might be provisioned with verterium cortenide as a matter of course to facilitate replacements, though probably not in the amounts necessary to completely rebuild the ship's nacelles on their own. Of course, we also have the funny mineral gallicite from "Blood Fever" which they can apparently use to refit the nacelles, but in each case, it appears that this is something they need to procure, rather than merely replicate.

"Year of Hell" isn't the only example. Under constant attack, Voyager doesn't have the resources for easy repairs, as "Equinox" also demonstrates.

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... t2_065.jpg

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... t2_066.jpg

[Lucky]

All I am saying is it is not an outlier to be discounted all together. Sure it is not the mean, but it is still there, it is still canon, so it still can not be dismissed as nothing. It should be counted, alongside all of the other evidence, into a kind of "best-fit" for warp speeds as a whole.

One problem with the 1000c from Voyager figure and 9000c from The Next Generation figure is that we don't know what variables are used to arive at them

The reason warp speeds are all over the place is because they tried to slow down the top speed for warp travel without thinking about the ramifications beyond the fact that high speeds would mean the Federation could reach where Voyager was in a few years at most. They missed the fact that space is big, there are a huge number of stars to study in the Alpha quadrant alone, and the very limited number of ships in comparison to size the Federation would have.

As for Voyager never being able to reach max warp, they could and did on several occasions. Although their ability to do so was probably limited in duration. And as people have pointed out many times we have seen that the majority of the time Voyager is cruising home at warp six (when they aren't doing anything else), which they are fully capable of doing.

i never said anything Voyager not being able to reach maximum warp, but it is rarely done, and it seems like Voyager was normally traveling at about warp 5 or even impulse* most of the time. This would make it seem that the crew did not want to push the ship too hard.

*Impulse is capable of faster then light speeds in TOS and possibly TNG, but it slow compared to warp.

I'm sorry you find them to be confusing. They are charting warp factor vs velocity c for three different scales so that you can more easily distinguish points that are close together. For example on the first chart, you can see the higher values, but the different lower ones are indistinguishable. And on the last chart you can distinguish each value, but the higher ones are not displayed.

It took me some time to figure out what the difference between the charts was. I would have made a single chart with increments of 1000c. The charts purpose being to give a general idea at a glance. It kind of defeats the purpose of said chart if I have stop and think about what I am looking at.

Every example has been repeatedly contradicted by every other example because very few of them work with each other, they're all over the place. Many things contradict the DS9 examples, many things contradict the TNG examples, and many things contradict the VOY examples. That is why you collect them all into one place, to determine from this mess what is reasonable given all of the evidence.

As much as most information in the Next Generation Tech Manual is utterly worthless, it does say that warp factors are not exact speeds.

.-.-.-.-.-

I ran some numbers trying to figure out what the likely distances the ships travel in a year.

Assumptions
A different planet is visited every episode(Not true, but I'm going for a low end)

One television season = one year

The average distance each planet will be assumed to be 10, 100, 1000 and 10000 light-years from the last

I will round to the nearest whole number

Formula
Assumed average distance between planets*Number of total episodes/Devided by seasons= Minimum distance Traveled by ship in a year

TOS had a total of 79 episodes and 3 seasons

10*79/3= 263

100*79/3= 2,633

1000*79/3= 26,333

10000*79/3= 263,333

TNG had a total of 178 episodes and 7 seasons

10*178/7= 254

100*178/7= 2,543

1000*178/7= 25,429

10000*178/7= 254,286

Ent had a total of 97 episodes and 4 seasons

10*97/4= 243

100*97/4= 2,425

1000*97/4= 24,250

10000*97/4= 242,500

Notes
It is often forgotten that the ships in question perform missions off screen making distances traveled during a years time longer then what is seen.

Episodes like "First Contact" state that the Enterprise-D had traveled from Earth to a planet over 2,000 light years away, but there are 13 episodes before it in 4. This would mean that the Enterprise-D had to travel farther then 2,000 light-years then was needed in order to reach the planet First Contact takes place on. This means the average travel speed for the Enterprise-D had to have been in excess of 2,000c

Actually being able to construct two or more warp driven ships using Federation technology means that they have the ability and resources to construct and repair at least equal amounts of their own ship. And they can do this on quite a large scale, such as when they were completely replacing several of their large warp coils in VOY:"Nightingale"

JANEWAY: The plasma burst irradiated the engine nacelles. The inner layer of the warp coils was burned away. 
TORRES: Which means the warp engines are useless until we can rebuild them. 


CHAKOTAY: They're made from a substance known as verterium cortenide. Do you know where we can find a source? 


NEELIX: Verterium cortenide, if I'm not mistaken, that's a densified composite material. 


TORRES: That's right. It's composed of polysilicate verterium and monocrystal cortenum. 


JANEWAY: Do you know any nearby source? 


NEELIX: Let's see. Er, there's a yellow dwarf system called Hemikek with an M-class planet quite rich in minerals. Mining rights belong to a consortium of non-aggressive people. I'm sure we could make arrangements to purchase some verterium and cortenum.

Warp Coils don't seem to be much more complex the hull plating. Warp coils are not warp cores, and in VOY:"Nightingale" Voyager had crew out looking for resources

The plot of "Concerning Flight" would imply there are things that Voyager can't build such as a main computer.

" Year of Hell" would again show there are limits to what level of damage can be fixed.

The Enterprise-D was put in dry dock after its navigational deflector was destroyed in "Best of Both worlds."

Being able to build shuttles and torpedos is different from being able to build Intrepid Class star ships, and that is what you are basically saying.

To put it in a real world perspective, I have no doubt an aircraft carrier if given the needed materials could build small boats with the tools it has, but that in no way implies it could build every part it would need to keep running, let alone build another aircraft carrier.

[359]

The point about replacing the warp coils is that they are large scale construction. The point is not if Voyager could rebuild large chunks of their ship, or build an entirely new ship all together. They have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to repair damage they sustain from episode to episode. Therefor there is not sufficient reason to count Voyager as an outlier due to extenuating circumstances along the lines of consistent damage to the propulsion system.

Also, the Enterprise-D was able to repair their main deflector several hours after its destruction in TNG: "Best of Both Worlds Part II".

[Praeothmin]

Oh look, it's Voyager in Endgame...
Damn, it sure looks like it's close to Pristine condition, doesn't it?

The point about replacing the warp coils is that they are large scale construction. The point is not if Voyager could rebuild large chunks of their ship, or build an entirely new ship all together. They have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to repair damage they sustain from episode to episode. Therefor there is not sufficient reason to count Voyager as an outlier due to extenuating circumstances along the lines of consistent damage to the propulsion system.

Also, the Enterprise-D was able to repair their main deflector several hours after its destruction in TNG: "Best of Both Worlds Part II".

My point exactly...

[359]

TNG: "Homeward":

Data: "It is Vacca Six in the Cabral sector."
Riker: "We can reach that in forty two hours at maximum warp, sir."
Picard: "Very well. Helm, set course for Vacca Six."
Gates: "Aye, sir."

From TNG: "The Wounded" we know that a 10 light-year radius scanning range on a ship traveling 4,174c can scan one sector in one day. So a cube with a volume of of 20 ly*1,524 ly*20 ly has a side length of 84.7907 light-years, and we are given that Vacca Six is in a different sector, so the transit distance is a likely minimum of 84 ly. The transit time is 42 hours at maximum warp for the Enterprise, warp 9.6, for a minimum speed of 17,697c.

This is assuming that the planets are in relatively the same place in adjacent sectors, it is more likely that they are several sectors apart.

Warp: maximum, 9.6; Time: 42 hr; Distance: >84 ly

[Lucky]

The point about replacing the warp coils is that they are large scale construction. The point is not if Voyager could rebuild large chunks of their ship, or build an entirely new ship all together. They have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to repair damage they sustain from episode to episode. Therefor there is not sufficient reason to count Voyager as an outlier due to extenuating circumstances along the lines of consistent damage to the propulsion system.

You can build the warp coils inside Voyager. They seem to be small enough that they could be made inside Voyager, and almost the right size to fit through the shuttle bay doors
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... ss_MSD.jpg

It actually looks like Voyager has a sort of jig for building warp coils.
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ale004.jpg

You can't build a warp core for something like Voyager inside Voyager do to limited floor space alone. YOu can't even build certain parts of a warp core inside of Voyager do to lack of space.

Also, the Enterprise-D was able to repair their main deflector several hours after its destruction in TNG: "Best of Both Worlds Part II".

RIKER: As we anticipated, the blast burned out our main navigational deflector. We also have damage to our shields and our reactor core.


LAFORGE: We should be back up in eight to twelve hours, Admiral.

-=-=-=-=-=-

RIKER: And Earth Station McKinley has advised they're ready to begin refitting the Enterprise.


PICARD: Have they estimated time for repairs?


RIKER: Five or six weeks.

5 to 6 weeks in dry dock for repairs. I don't think the Enterprise-D's crew fixed everything. The fact the Enterprise-D is being refitted rather then repaired seems to show there is something far more then repairing existing systems going on.

[359]

Just for fun I took all of the TNG era warp velocities from this thread, tossed out the millions of c values, and threw them on a graph and had the program plot a power-type best fit curve. It actually came out near my early guesses just from watching the show (50,000c-90,000c for max warp, crossing the Federation on the scale of months) at warp 9.9 ≈ 100,000c, 9 ≈ 80,000c, 8 ≈ 60,000c, 7 ≈ 45,000c, 6 ≈ 30,000c, 5 ≈ 20,000c, and from there it gets a little unlikely as it is a basic exponential curve and warp 1 ≈ 400c.

[2046]

Wow. That is a lot higher than I would've expected. As you can see from my comparison page, I figured they'd top out at perhaps 25% of that.

[359]

Yeah... I tended toward the 50,000 end of my estimate before this. But this is also a simple ax^b (377.8x^2.438) type curve which doesn't rocket off to infinity at warp 10. There are probably a few points I have missed, but with 34 distinct points it is probably the vast majority and fairly close even if more were added, unless they were way higher. Even with a point added at (10,0), the value is only reduced by 4.4% at warp 9 (and none of this includes the millions of c values at all).

In any case, this is not quite final. But realistically it is very close to being final, and I will go with it, until I or someone else decides to do a better curve.

[Lucky]

Just for fun I took all of the TNG era warp velocities from this thread, tossed out the millions of c values, and threw them on a graph and had the program plot a power-type best fit curve. It actually came out near my early guesses just from watching the show (50,000c-90,000c for max warp, crossing the Federation on the scale of months) at warp 9.9 ≈ 100,000c, 9 ≈ 80,000c, 8 ≈ 60,000c, 7 ≈ 45,000c, 6 ≈ 30,000c, 5 ≈ 20,000c, and from there it gets a little unlikely as it is a basic exponential curve and warp 1 ≈ 400c.

Why would a basic exponential curve make your results unlikely?